T Nation

HCG Monotherapy


#1

I started HCG monotherapy on my own a couple weeks ago. I've previously been tested with TT in the high 200's and low 300's. My FT has been zilch. I've been using 350 I.u. EOD.

The effects have been impressive. I feel great. I'm recovering from workouts in a day that would normally leave me sore for days. Libido has been through the roof. It took about 10 days to kick in, but I would have never guessed it would be this pronounced of a change. I've got an AI available should I need it, but right now I don't think I do.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?


#2

hCG replaces LH. So it would not do any good for someone who has primary hypogonadism. We can expect good results with younger men who have primary hypogonadism. With older men, their testes simply are not going to turn on the T faucet with hCG.


#3

It's interesting to me to hear of your success on HCG Monotherapy as it seems it's not particularly common, most probably for the reason Ksman stated. I'm also on montherapy but with a protocol that was started by my endo with a dosage of 2000iu twice a week which from what I now know is way too much as my E2 has risen and any benefit I did feel has come crashing back down.

Changed to 300iu eod just under 2 weeks ago as well as megadosing iodine just under a week ago but still feeling terrible. Am hoping things will start to balance soon.

Encouraging to hear your success so be sure to keep us updated.
Do you have any bloods booked in for the near future?


#4

KSman,

This is why I took the path I took. The endo that I went to decided that I was displaying signs of secondary hypogonadism, but at 320 ng/dl (250-1100) I "was fine".

Basically it came down to this. If I lied and said that I couldn't get it up, then I'd get some form of Test.(probably cream), but the fact that my junk still worked somehow meant that all was well with the world.

Maybe I'm a lucky one or maybe things will change as I continue down this path. It's hard to know, but I'll try to keep checking back in.


#5

I am going to get some bloods done during my normal yearly check up, but that isn't until later in the month. It's not exactly a scientific approach, but I will be interested to see how it turns out.


#6

125IU pretty much every day put me at the high end of the normal range for free T. I say pretty much because I wouldn't get too worried about missing a day and never traveled with it. If I knew I was going to miss a few doses I would just take a little more before and/or after.


#7

I've been on HCG about a month now. It's been a god-send. I haven't gotten bloods, yet, but I feel freakin' great. Pretty much any aspect of additional testosterone that you'd want, I've experienced. I'm still at 350iu EOD. I have no reason to change it. I have not had any gyno response, so that's also a positive. I have an AI ready to go, but haven't used any of it.

Just thought I'd update things.


#8

Can you put any of this into context of age, issues, lab values etc?

See if anything in the advice for new guys sticky is of interest to you. It also has some advanced concepts.


#9

Well, I can, but my biggest problem is no recent blood tests.

41 years old, 5' 8", 154 lbs., ~15% bodyfat
full head of hair, good goatee-but not really a beard, chest/belly hair, no back hair
carry fat around umbilicus
No big health issues

Latest labs (a year old)

Total T 290 (250-1100) <----------------- Doctor said, "Fine"
Free T 24.5 (46-224) <-------------------Doctor said, "Well, I'd like to see that a little higher"
SHBG 53 (10-50)
Albumin, serum 4.5 (3.6-5.1)
Bioavailable T 50.3 (110-575)
TSH 0.78 (0.40-4.50)
LH not measured

Total HDL 88 >=40
Total LDL 102 <130
Total Cholesterol 202 <200
Triglycerides 50 <150
LDL - Pattern A

Diet = Paleo + rice (when adding carbs) + greek yogurt and/or whey powder (when adding protein)
Macro splits (approx.) ~150 grams of protein/day, ~150-200 grams carbs/day, plenty of fat

training - endurance training on bike, running, walking, kettlebells, sandbags

No aching testes (thank god)
morning wood / nocturnal wood (at times before, now essentially every night)
Libido is much stronger on HCG. I've never really had 'trouble' in this area and no impotence, but things are definitely off and running now.

I've never been on 'gear' of any variety. I'm not against it, but just haven't. This experiment with HCG is as far as I've ever gone and it's an eye-opener.

I've got some anastrozole in case I need an AI, but I haven't come up with any Gyno type issue.

Let me know if I've missed anything. I had another blood test around the same time that showed similar results.

Here's a question. How long can/should I run the HCG? At what point could it start to cause issues?


#10

Went to talk to Doc yesterday. I get bloods tomorrow. I had to tussle with him about getting E2 measured. He was a real douche. I told him about the HCG (@ 300iu now) and that it's made me feel better. He told me that males don't make estrogen in the testes, so it's a stupid test to even look at. I didn't argue. I don't have to prove anything to him and, honestly, as long as he would right the request, I don't give a shit what his opinion is. I can read the bloods.

My big questions I have right now is where is T, FT and E2 are at. I'm worried I'm at the point of over-shooting the HCG, even though I haven't shown any gyno issues. Let's be honest, though, there's a long way between an 'optimum' level and me growing tits. There has definitely been a change with the HCG, but who knows where I'm at with any of it.

He was completely unimpressed that I was taking the HCG without it being prescribed. When he asked where I got it, I just told him, "I'm a pretty industrious guy." He kind of snorted. I didn't have the heart to tell him I've got 12 grams of Test C in my desk drawer! He probably would have walked out on me.


#11

I don't think you have to worry about stopping HCG. It would be a good ideal to use the least amount of HCG as possible while getting the desired result.


#12

My biggest point of interest is really just to find out where I'm at. I'm feeling good, but I'm feeling good compared to a T level of 300! Hell, it's not hard to feel better than that. It's all just a qualitative comparison. Just because I feel 'good' where I'm at doesn't mean I'm at some sort of 'optimum'. The doc actually said to me something along the lines of, "As we age, we do slow down. Things start to hurt. You can't do what you used to. Is it really ethically 'right' for me to try to change that?". What a great attitude! If you're not in some sort of mortal peril or showing overt pathology, then I really can't be bothered to help you.

If I'm at 1000 ng/dl on Test and ~22 E2, then I'm going to continue just as I am and ride this wagon for as long as I can. If I'm relatively low on test and fine on E2, then I know I can add some Test (and probably drop the hCG to 250mg E3D) to bump the T and Free T. If I'm high on E2 (almost regardless of where Test is), then I know I have to reduce the hCG (and probably add Test). Basically, it's a 'salt to taste' type of a thing.

It was just interesting talking to the guy. I've got a year's worth of supplies already tee'd up, so I don't have to kiss his ass. He didn't quite know what to do with me. It made me feel bad for the massive group of guys that are having serious issues and then rely on these jack-holes to fix it for them. At the end of the day, no one cares more about your situation than you. You've got to do your homework and advocate for yourself. Some doc's just can't cope with that.


#13

Another thing. It's just amazing how it all ties back to ED. If your junk works, then they just don't care. At that point, they've got something they can 'fix' and so they're all for it. Up until that, though, they just want to write you off as a 'juicer'. So, the lesson is, that if you want to get a doc to listen to you, just claim ED (regardless of whether it's true), because then they'll react.


#14

Can us "older men" still receive some of the other benefits of HCG ? Like improved mood, and the loosening of the scrotum ? And maybe grow some nuts back to fill that loose sac?


#15

We'll, I got my labs back. It's a mixed success.

I've been taking 300iu HCG eod for a couple months now. I feel better. I'm recovering better from workouts. Libido was never a big issue, but it's better. I've really been curious where everything is at.

TT 448 (250-1100)
FT 59.1 (35-155)

Free estradiol 0.61 (<0.45)
Total estradiol 29 (<29)

So it appears the HCG has raised T levels by maybe 50%, which is good, but the total number is still quite low. Also of note is that estradiol is too high. At 300 iu's of HCG, I was worried about desensitization of LH receptors and creating too much E2. It's hard to know about the former, but the latter is happening.

I'm going to add 125mg/wk of T Cyp to the mix, 2 SC injections/week. I'm also going to reduce the HCG for a couple reasons. 1. I'm not getting much T out of it and 2. I want to reduce E2. The sticky recommendation is 250 EOD, but I think I'm going to pull that back to twice a week, for a total of 500 iu/week. If I needed to start the adex, I will.

I'll see how that treats me for a month or so and then test again.


#16

bringing E2 down will raise T a bit. Free T might come up quite a bit since SHBG seems to track with E2. You should do that first. Your not far from decent T levels. You could then try other things like DHEA if DHEA-s levels are not at the top of the range.


#17

The problem is that a rise in E2 due to HCG can't be addressed by an AI. It's created in the testes and not in the body fat. So, I need to reduce the HCG which will reduce my E2 and T as well. Then I can add in exogenous T. If E2 gets too high (from aromitization), I can add an A.I. which will address it at that point.

The HCG definitely has an effect. I can feel it working and my T levels went up 50%, which is no small feat. I just don't want to fiddle around at levels of 450. I'm shooting for around twice that.


#18

I'd say run 250iu mon/wed/Fri for more even levels. If that keeps you around 400 alone, you won't need much T to get to 800-900 range. Probably around 80mg a week. 125 would probably put you over range


#19

This part's not right. Hcg induced E2 can be addressed with an AI. I do it all the time. The difference is only that with straight TRT, E2 comes from aromatization of T. With Hcg, E2 is produced by your balls and also comes from aromatization of T (which, with Hcg, is also produced by your balls). Some people need more AI on Hcg because of the two sources, but it still works. For what it's worth though, 29 pg/mL E2 really is fine. Hope things work out.


#20

You bring up a good point. All of the E2 is not due to the hcg, there is a component of it that is body fat related. To be honest, I don't know what percentage we can attribute to this. I'm not a particularly heavy guy and I'm relatively lean (not a body builder by any stretch, but visible abs), so I've assumed my body fat aromitization is relatively small. This may or may not be a valid assumption.

An a.i. would probably drop the e2 a bit, but at the same time, I'm running about 1/2 the Test level I'm shooting for. What the HCG experiment has shown me is that my testes are able to produce more that they were, but not as much as I'd like. I think if I were to, say, double my dose of HCG I probably wouldn't get much of a bump in test and, if I did, I would also see a corresponding rise in e2. So I'm left with pulling back the HCG somewhat (about 1/2) and adding test until I'm at the level I want. If, at that point, I am low on e2 (without an a.i.), then I might reshuffle the deck with more HCG and less test. In the end, I think its just going to take some mortar-fire to balance everything out.

It is worth noting a couple things. The free e2 level was proportionally higher than the total e2, which makes me wonder if the e2 was as accurate as I would want (I don't think the doc ordered the "sensitive" test). Also, when I was first on HCG I consistently had morning wood and that went away (presumably as e2 went up). It will probably take a couple different lash ups before I get it right.