T Nation

HCG Monotherapy - 26 Male


#1

First post here. I've been researching the HCG monotherapy protocol for several months now. I was first placed on it by my doc back in September of 2014 and have been on it ever since. According to almost every post on most forums I've lurked, my dose is far too high and should cause desensitization. Although, I haven't been able to find any published studies pointing to the validity of this thought (when the patients were dosed at somewhat fathomable doses...less than 5,000iu/week).

The main reason I am starting this thread is to hear what people think about the protocol I am on and what they think I could do differently/better. I know all guys don't respond the same when taking HCG for TRT (depending on their reason for being on TRT) but I seem to have responded decently. My libido is decent, strength & size have both increased since starting therapy, I feel good overall.

Below is a breakdown of the different doses my Dr has tried me on since beginning therapy.

Initial visit (9/2014):
500iu HCG 3x per week
Follow Up (10/2014):
500iu HCG 5x per week
Follow up (11/2014):
500iu HCG 5x per week
anastrozole .5mg 3x per week
Follow up (3/2015)
600iu HCG 5x per week
anastrozole .5mg 3x per week

Here are my blood values for the 3 sets of labs I have had done so far.
9/15/2014 (pre treatment)
Total Testosterone - 517 - 348.0-1197.0 ng/dL
Free Testosterone - 7.5 - 9.3-26.5 pg/mL
Estradiol - 14.6 - 7.6-42.6 pg/mL
SHBG - 34.2 - 16.5-55.9 nmol/L

11/20/2014 (post, 1 month 1500iu/week, 1 month 2500iu/week)
Total Testosterone - 1002 - 348.0-1197.0 ng/dL
Free Testosterone - 14.5 - 9.3-26.5 pg/mL
Estradiol - 56.6 - 7.6-42.6 pg/mL
SHBG - 55.4 - 16.5-55.9 nmol/L

3/16/2015 (post 4 months 2500iu/week, 1.5mg AI/week)
Total Testosterone - 829.3* - 348.0-1197.0 ng/dL
Free Testosterone - 39.6 - 9.3-26.5 pg/mL
Estradiol - 35.6 - 7.6-42.6 pg/mL
SHBG - 28.4 - 16.5-55.9 nmol/L

5/5/2015 (post ~1.5 months 3000iu/week, 1.5mg AI/week)
Total Testosterone - 928.1* - 348.0-1197.0 ng/dL
Free Testosterone - 24.2 - 9.3-26.5 pg/mL
Estradiol - 47.3 - 7.6-42.6 pg/mL
Sensitive Estradiol - 43.2 - 8.0-35.0 pg/mL
SHBG - 31.4 - 16.5-55.9 nmol/L

*For the last Total Testosterone test, a different method was used. LC/MS-MS was the new testing method where first two tests used a method labeled 'serum'.

I have many more blood values than what I provided here for each lab, I just listed what I believe to be the most relevant to this post. Feel free to inquire on others.

I am considering upping my anastrozol by .5mg / week and see how I feel. IMO, my estradiol is a tad higher than where I want it to be.


#2

I would drop the dose of HCG…
Youll likely have plenty of T and either need less AI or none at all…

You may not have given the first protocol of HCG enough time to get peak levels


#3

[quote]Macmathews wrote:Youll likely have plenty of T and either need less AI or none at all…
[/quote]

Thanks for the quick response. You’ll notice that after 2 months of HCG therapy with no AI, my Estradiol levels went from 14.6 to 56.6. That’s quite the jump, I doubt coming off of the AI would be an option.


#4

In that time frame you upped your HCG dose as well correct ?
the information here recommends the starting dose of 250 EOD


#5

[quote]Macmathews wrote:
In that time frame you upped your HCG dose as well correct ?
the information here recommends the starting dose of 250 EOD

[/quote]
Yes I did up the dose in that time frame. Honestly, I trusted my Dr on the dosing. He’s a hormone Dr with quite a few patients on HCG monotherapy. I hadn’t considered second guessing his judgement up to this point.

I will say that at my last follow up I expressed an interest in trying testosterone instead of HCG and he was reluctant to switch me. His reason was that rarely does he see people respond to the monotherapy as well as I have and to switch me at this point would be reckless given my age.


#6

You are responding well.

From what I have learned your dose is too high.
Especially with your T numbers…
No reason to be at 1000 Total test… You may even feel better at 600-700


#7

[quote]Macmathews wrote:
You are responding well.

From what I have learned your dose is too high.
[/quote]
Fair enough, you are likely correct.

[quote]Macmathews wrote:
Especially with your T numbers…
No reason to be at 1000 Total test… You may even feel better at 600-700
[/quote]
Why? If one of my goals is muscle building, would 1000 not offer me a significantly better result than 600?


#8

Well,

TRT for most is about feeling better then when having low T…
Also - there is alot more to building muscle than 600 vs 1000 total T…
Diet , training , rest… Bla , bla bla…


#9

[quote]Macmathews wrote:
TRT for most is about feeling better then when having low T…
Also - there is alot more to building muscle than 600 vs 1000 total T…
Diet , training , rest… Bla , bla bla…

[/quote]

Yes TRT is about feeling better. But being a skinny-fat blob after years of training and dieting definitely can make one feel negatively. I used to have “semis” now I have “ragers” (Still no morning wood though). So sexually I feel much better. My energy level is great too. My facial hair is still patchy…not sure if this is even T related. But, why is it taboo to want gains in the gym as well as in my day to day life? I am trying to be my BEST not marginally better.

Of course there’s more to muscle building than hormones. But after strictly following training programs and clean eating yields you minimal results, you start to wonder why. The unspoken part of my question was “Assuming everything under my control is on point (diet, programming, intensity in the gym, rest) would an extra 400 Total T not help me reach my goals?”


#10

The differences in T levels you are talking about are probably not going to provide a good return on investment. Cost, dealing with E2 issues and the possibility of desensitization out weight the unnoticeable difference a few points of Free T will provide in my book. I don’t believe we really know what jacking up E2 with higher than needed doses and then knocking it back with an AI dose. Is it ineffective at reducing aromatization in some tissue and crushing it others? Does this lower E2 too much in tissue where it might be desirable while doing nothing to reduce E2 is tissue we might want to lower it. All we see are serum levels of E2.

I think you would be wise to drop the dose as far as you can while keeping free T at the top of the range. This should minimize E2 issues and keep sensitivity high. I saw no difference between 500IU ED and 125IU ED. Cutting your dose in half might provide pretty much the same T levels with a reduction in AI needed.


#11

[quote]dhickey wrote:
The differences in T levels you are talking about are probably not going to provide a good return on investment. Cost, dealing with E2 issues and the possibility of desensitization out weight the unnoticeable difference a few points of Free T will provide in my book. I don’t believe we really know what jacking up E2 with higher than needed doses and then knocking it back with an AI dose. Is it ineffective at reducing aromatization in some tissue and crushing it others? Does this lower E2 too much in tissue where it might be desirable while doing nothing to reduce E2 is tissue we might want to lower it. All we see are serum levels of E2.

I think you would be wise to drop the dose as far as you can while keeping free T at the top of the range. This should minimize E2 issues and keep sensitivity high. I saw no difference between 500IU ED and 125IU ED. Cutting your dose in half might provide pretty much the same T levels with a reduction in AI needed.[/quote]

Good points dhickey. I think I have decided to continue as prescribed for the rest of this month (assuming there is no onset of negative symptoms) then order some bloodwork so I can create a benchmark for this dosing. At that point I will decide what change needs to be made to my dosing.

You are on HCG mono right? Do you have bloodwork for your 500IU ED & 125IU ED doses?


#12

Just as an example…
I beleive I have always been on the lower end of “the normal T range” Always had little body , leg and armpit hair
And only found it after going through a major depression on a life changing event…

Point is…
I have always been accused of JUICING in the gym… Friends , peers were always looking sideways…

A big reason I think there is ALOT more to gains than T…


#13

[quote]ab324 wrote:

[quote]dhickey wrote:
The differences in T levels you are talking about are probably not going to provide a good return on investment. Cost, dealing with E2 issues and the possibility of desensitization out weight the unnoticeable difference a few points of Free T will provide in my book. I don’t believe we really know what jacking up E2 with higher than needed doses and then knocking it back with an AI dose. Is it ineffective at reducing aromatization in some tissue and crushing it others? Does this lower E2 too much in tissue where it might be desirable while doing nothing to reduce E2 is tissue we might want to lower it. All we see are serum levels of E2.

I think you would be wise to drop the dose as far as you can while keeping free T at the top of the range. This should minimize E2 issues and keep sensitivity high. I saw no difference between 500IU ED and 125IU ED. Cutting your dose in half might provide pretty much the same T levels with a reduction in AI needed.[/quote]

Good points dhickey. I think I have decided to continue as prescribed for the rest of this month (assuming there is no onset of negative symptoms) then order some bloodwork so I can create a benchmark for this dosing. At that point I will decide what change needs to be made to my dosing.

You are on HCG mono right? Do you have bloodwork for your 500IU ED & 125IU ED doses?
[/quote]
Free T was 19.4 pg/ml at 500IU and 22 pg/ml at 125IU. Different days will produce slight variations, so I chalk this up to virtually identical results. I never got blood work at 250IU MWF, but I suspect it would be pretty much the same. As long as I’m in that 20-25 pg/ml range, I’m happy with the dose. I’ve been as high as 37 and noticed no difference in mood, body composition or increases in strength.


#14

I am happy I found this thread! I’ve been trying to research this for the last week and found nothing but 100 pages of that HCG Diet bs.

My Doctor just prescribed me HCG for low-T. I am a 30 year old who does his best to live a healthy life. Meal Prep, training, right amounts of sleep, and recovery etc. I’ve been tired and seeing very little results in my training and lifestyle the last year. The most notable thing is how tired I am, I felt like I was napping my life away. I don’t have the dosages handy but the Dr. told me 3x a week ill be injecting as well as using an estrogen blocker. I’m glad the OP is getting some good results. I am not looking to change a whole lot of my body composition as from what I’ve read it isn’t really for that but I want to feel better, but I’ve got to ask, is there any athletic benefit to this stuff at all?


#15

Only indirectly, in that you may perform better or gain better while having good testosterone and estrogen levels than with poor levels.


#16

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Only indirectly, in that you may perform better or gain better while having good testosterone and estrogen levels than with poor levels.[/quote]

That’s what I figured. The lack of energy and appetite make training almost non-enjoyable. I just hope I feel like the old me again.


#17

[quote]yz449f wrote:
I am happy I found this thread! I’ve been trying to research this for the last week and found nothing but 100 pages of that HCG Diet bs.

My Doctor just prescribed me HCG for low-T. I am a 30 year old who does his best to live a healthy life. Meal Prep, training, right amounts of sleep, and recovery etc. I’ve been tired and seeing very little results in my training and lifestyle the last year. The most notable thing is how tired I am, I felt like I was napping my life away. I don’t have the dosages handy but the Dr. told me 3x a week ill be injecting as well as using an estrogen blocker. I’m glad the OP is getting some good results. I am not looking to change a whole lot of my body composition as from what I’ve read it isn’t really for that but I want to feel better, but I’ve got to ask, is there any athletic benefit to this stuff at all?[/quote]

What Bill said is exactly right. But don’t assume that since it is “indirectly” that the results should be mild (They could be mild though). When I started this therapy 8-9 months ago, I weighed 169lbs (I had just finished a diet). I don’t know what my body fat was but I had a little ‘fluf’ still (no defined 6 pack for instance). A recent dexa scan told me my lean body mass was 170lbs. That tells me that I have put on significant muscle in the past 8-9 months. Now how much of that would I have put on without the HCG? I don’t know.


#18

[quote]ab324 wrote:

[quote]yz449f wrote:
I am happy I found this thread! I’ve been trying to research this for the last week and found nothing but 100 pages of that HCG Diet bs.

My Doctor just prescribed me HCG for low-T. I am a 30 year old who does his best to live a healthy life. Meal Prep, training, right amounts of sleep, and recovery etc. I’ve been tired and seeing very little results in my training and lifestyle the last year. The most notable thing is how tired I am, I felt like I was napping my life away. I don’t have the dosages handy but the Dr. told me 3x a week ill be injecting as well as using an estrogen blocker. I’m glad the OP is getting some good results. I am not looking to change a whole lot of my body composition as from what I’ve read it isn’t really for that but I want to feel better, but I’ve got to ask, is there any athletic benefit to this stuff at all?[/quote]

What Bill said is exactly right. But don’t assume that since it is “indirectly” that the results should be mild (They could be mild though). When I started this therapy 8-9 months ago, I weighed 169lbs (I had just finished a diet). I don’t know what my body fat was but I had a little ‘fluf’ still (no defined 6 pack for instance). A recent dexa scan told me my lean body mass was 170lbs. That tells me that I have put on significant muscle in the past 8-9 months. Now how much of that would I have put on without the HCG? I don’t know.
[/quote]

Athletic performance aside I really am just looking for someone to share their experience with me. Like I was saying in my first post you search the stuff and get 10000 hits back about a sham diet and no real information.

Thanks for the reply.


#19

Feel free to reach out with any questions. Im happy to discuss here or in a PM.


#20

Just an update, I feel great after the past 2 months at 3000iu/week of HCG. I’ve been having consistent morning wood for the last couple weeks where as before I would have it maybe once every few months. Bloodwork is being done today, so I will post back with my labs when I get the results.