T Nation

HCG/Letrozole Raised Total T to 982 & Free T to 240 in 2wks

51yo at 270lbs and feeling like a slob! 30% BMI

Here in AZ, I’m able to order full labs for cash.
Looking to run 12 week cycle for cutting & building.

Liver, blood count, kidney, clotting factor, insulin, cholesterol, psa, and everything else you can think of to evaluate safety of doing a cycle. Also got ultrasound of heart, liver, panc, kidneys, adrenals, bladder, spleen. all good.

Diet is now carnivore and mild paleo.
Mild Keto, fasting glucose 90-105.
Mild insulin resistance.
50in chest
50in waist
46in belt
Thyroid values good.
Glucose mildly elevated.

Started 100iu HCG every 3 days
1unit HGH 2 times per day
Letrozol 2.5mg daily.

My thinking was what little test I was making was being converted to estrogen by my fat cells so I was in a sand pit struggling to get out with out having to go David Goggins!

Here is my natural test history 2017-2020.

Age: 48yo

Testosterone, Total, 450* (250-1100) ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 82.0* (35.0-155.0) pg/mL

Age: 49yo

Testosterone, Total 403 (250-1100) ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 75 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL

Age: 51yo

Estrogen Total, Serum 240.4 (60-190) pg/mL NL <~~~~ THIS IS CRAZY! Aromatization?

Testosterone, Free 52.9 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL SL
Testosterone, Total, 394 (250-1100) ng/dL SL

So from here I Starded
100iu HCG every 3 days
1unit HGH 2 times per day
Letrozol 2.5mg daily.

Wow did I improve & I didn’t use and test or anabolics!

Age: 51yo

Estradiol <5 (≤44) pg/mL
Estrogen Total, Serum 114.0 (60-190) pg/mL NL

Testosterone, Total 986 (250-1100) ng/dL HCG??? LETROZOL???
Testosterone, Free 240 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL YES!!! 240 FREE TEST!!!

Hope everything goes well! Ill keep you posted!

I has planning on:
500mg weekly TEST P & C/E Blend
50mg Anavar daily.
50mg Winstrol daily.
200mg Masteron Every other day.
250iu HCG every 3 days.
2unit HGH 2 times per day.
Then ramping down cycle and ramping up PCT’s.

Is this a troll?

Where does one begin?

Stop taking GH twice a day in 1iu increments. That’s dumb and all it does is waste a needle every single day. Take 2iu in the morning, fasted.

Masteron 700mg/w being used by someone who is obese is absolutely the dumbest thing I’ve seen on here in a while, and that’s really saying something. That’s a drug that you have no business using because it is not meant for you in your current shape. All you’re doing is throwing money away.

Winstrol has a specific user base. You are not in that group. You’re 51, which means your joints are also 51. Adding in something that is harsh on the joints of guys half your age is just asking for trouble. Drop it and avoid unnecessary risk of injury.

Anavar is great. Test is great. Go with those.

PCT…dude. You’re 51 with horrible natural test levels. You may want to be more realistic about your chances of recovery and plan to just go on trt when you’re done with this cycle. This whole thing appears to be randomly thrown together without any real thought put into what each drug does. Planning a cycle is just as important as the execution of said cycle. This one is not a good plan. Luckily you can just draw up a new plan. No harm in that.

He already has insulin resistance (GH is a bad idea) He should reconsider this entire plan.

Running nearly 2 grams of gear… Seriously…

Iron…My Natural T is 900+ right now with 240 free T.
That’s on 200units weekly HCG, 2units of GH daily, Letrozole 2.5mg daily.

I have not started any T cycle.

I’d like to but being cautious. I’ve dropped my BMI from 30% to 25%. Checked with (Skulpt device). Weight has dropped and I haven’t even gotten into my routine.

I’m ramping up my pharma and checking blood work every two weeks. Money is not an issue for me.

Just want to make sure I have no negative reaction to the gear I have. I will be on 4 iu GH daily however twice a day.

I’m checking my 2 times glucose daily. It’s not that bad but could be better. Running about 100 but would like to see 80’s. 40min after eating it’s about 110.

As I said earlier, my diet is primarily protein based. Low carb to no carb. Reversing what ever resistance I have and very mindful of GH blood sugar levels.

I don’t need Mast or Wini, just recommended by pro body builder for cutting and anti estrogen.

I’m mainly interested in a GH, hcg, test, e blocker stack, Var is secondary if I see results.

The reason for posting is to illustrate how much my natural t rose from hcg and blocking aromatization.

Unreal, relax… Lol I got this. It’s a choice I have researched for months but I am proceeding with caution. It’s a serious commitment to consider and not taking lightly whatsoever.

Eating very clean, keeping good macros, protein and supplements.

Ultimately PCTs are the most important factor of going down this road.

My training is twice a day to include Cardio.

I’m serious about blood work and have access to doctors. Been in Healthcare 22 years and know what Im doing.

Thanks for the response.

Are you a doctor? At 51 50mg var + 50mg winny + 700mg mast will absolutely thrash your lipids beyond recognition. Look at the literature pertaining to even low doses of stanozolol alone (6mg/day) and the subsequent effect on lipids.

The risk regarding the development of maldaptive cardiac enlargement increases with dose… You’ve decided to run a cycle using dosages equatable to what a competitive bodybuilder might use, yet you are obese… You’ve also decided to use growth hormone while insulin resistant at baseline.

If you are going to use, do so with caution… Especially at 51 years of age.

T probably didn’t increase all that much from the AI. Using an AI alone would raise TT quite a bit, but HCG is an LH mimick thus it’ll effectively shut down the HPTA, the brunt of T increase is likely mediated via the use of HCG alone. Furthermore natural T didn’t rise at all, you’ve shut yourself down…

Why not wait until you have a base of physical fitness prior to using gear?

At 51 with borderline baseline hypogonadism PCT might not be all that effective.

I don’t like to judge, but there is so much blatantly wrong regarding your post/plan, I am legitimately worried… Please don’t go through with this (to the extreme extent you’ve outlined… If at all).

Cardio can slightly mitigate risk, and it’s fun… But it’s not going to come close to counteracting the damage induced via taking 2 grams of gear.

Bloodwork isn’t the be all end all either. Furthermore, it’s highly, HIGHLY unlikely you’ll have good bloodwork on the protocol outlined

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Try Metformin for your insulin sensitivity. If doing 4iu of GH then sure, split of you want. It makes no difference, it’s only about how much lethargy you get from 4 vs 2.

As far as steroids for cutting, I’ll give you the best advice available: there’s no such thing. It’s 100% diet. Unless you’re competing and carrying massive amounts of muscle the amount of anabolics you need to cut is a lot lower than the cycles you see guys running.

I want to know what your e2 is on that amount of Letro. You’re taking more than women with breast cancer. That’s going to take a serious toll on your body long term. Your real, actual testosterone levels are what they were before. The artificial number you’re seeing is simply not sustainable and certainly won’t stick around after a cycle.

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You clearly don’t.

Where? HCG plus that much letro is what you settled on? Get better research sources.

Um… thanks? Look I’m not meaning to be harsh but you’re posting like ‘this is great’ and for those of us that ARE educated in this matter we can clearly see its not. If you came here for advice instead then I suggest you take some from two of the most knowledgeable sources on this forum… @iron_yuppie and @unreal24278

Where you’d expect.

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Where’s the corresponding E2?

Also, congratulations on finding your borderline secondary hypogonadism. Now, I am interested to see where this thread goes.

I missed that, thanks. Holy shit that’s the lowest I’ve seen anywhere, including on reddit. That’s a work of art.

E2 less than 5 on letro and total E is 140. I’m titrating back on Letro to every 3 days.

My main issue was total estrogen of 240. That’s crazy! I have an appointment today to discuss getting prescribed anti estrogen and going over my labs.

What do you recommend on anti estrogen?

What was the accompanying baseline E2 (for the total estrogen of 240 pg/mL)?

In part why I asked the question.

Ultrasound testicular measurements are 4cm x 3.2 cm bilat. Normal echo texture. 1/2 cm cyst on the left epididymis. Non issue. Stimulus of natural testosterone w/ hcg has improved my T numbers without atrophy.

At the moment however my interest is not T replacement. It’s a 12 week hyperanobolic blood state.

I will address T replacement post cycle.

What would you suggest my natural minimum T levels should I shoot for?

Not a Doctor, imaging diagnostics trained in Cardiovascular and full body imaging. Also trained in respiratory that includes blood lab management. 22 years. I have several doctors that I see as patients that consult me for their health care.

As far as cardiac health oh, that’s an easy thing for me to monitor. Electric conductivity, chamber size wall thicknesses, valvular health, ejection fraction and overall kinetics.

I am however extremely cognizant of my lipid panel. I agree with you and I’m going to monitor that very carefully. Dr. Shawn Baker As Seen on Joe Rogan’s podcast for the carnivore lifestyle had commented that cholesterol lipid panel in a carnivore metabolism is not that important.

In my years of practice and studies the primary concern for vascular issues has primarily been a weakening immune system. The inflammatory processes that occur from increased blood lipids is where we start to see issues within the Lumen of arteries more specifically the carotid arteries. No different than the analogy of ruining your immune system with diabetes and smoking known to cause elevated incidences of cardiac, stroke and cancer issues as a result. It’s quite interesting and wish there was more areas of study specifically related to cardiovascular disease and the decrease in your immune system. This is why we don’t tend to see younger people with vascular occlusion. And why we tend to see the development of plaque and narrowing of arteries in people who are plus 55 years.

Ultimately, in the close monitoring of my cycle, I can easily back away from any increased aspects of elevated negative impacts to my body with clothes blood work monitoring and evaluation of my urinalysis and going as far as continued measurements of my cardiac health.

Not to mention my liver Health as well as my adrenal and kidneys as well as prostate health. Again I’m being cautious and the only thing that I have initiated is HCG and HGH with an emergency dosing of anti-estrogen which I have titrated back as my laboratory blood work has warranted.

So again this is why I’m posting this and hopefully I am able to achieve results without causing harm but I’m not going in blind! I appreciate any input you have sincerely. It’s always good to discuss science and research next with experience and laboratory facts.

Start in the 120/w range and adjust as needed based on feel and blood work. Easier to start lower because it gives you a potential floor rather than starting high, feeling great, but then having to lower the dose and being disappointed because it’s not quite as good. So basically the opposite of the clinic method.


Yeah I agree with that. My intent was to proceed slowly in a ramping up of testosterone with a mindset of not overwhelming and shocking my body. I’m also going to slowly rap down off of testosterone and increase my PCT slowly as well Guided by blood work.

We can all agree that everyone’s metabolism and given the extrinsic factors of what we do to our bodies cannot all be put in the same Peg hole as others. The only thing we can do is Monitor our Labs as well as taking a good assessment of our overall health and condition to try to do the best we can to achieve optimal Performance without hindering our body’s homeostasis post cycle

Been there, fuck that. I wanted to die with my e2 this low, even with TT above1000ng. How are you feeling with it this low?

Lol… SWOOPS39! How did you achieve estrogen levels that low that you wanted to die ?

Honestly I feel okay. I don’t know if it’s because my testosterone levels have risen or because I still have 140 total estrogen. Granite I don’t want my estradiol to remain below 5 but correct me if I’m wrong, adult male estradiol levels Are 10 - 40 pg / ml.

But one thing’s for sure as I’ve seen in medicine and dealing with patients, assess the patient overall despite clinical values. What might be good for someone may not be good for someone else despite what clinical values illustrate. I learned that long ago. Ultimately you have to look at the patient. Not just the labs.