T Nation

HCG Injections

…I’m currently doing Mon/Thurs injects of test cyp (and can’t change this). From the guys that are (or have) injecting 2xweek, what do you find works the best for injecting hCG?

I was thinking of doing 250IU on Sundays and Wednesdays, the day before my test inject. Does that sound about right or would there be a better time, a better dosage?..hebs

Hebs,
My doctor initially told me inject the HCG the day before my shots using 250iu twice a week. Here’s the thing: HCG has a shelf life of around 80 days, so you could inject the HCG 250iu EOD, so you wouldn’t have to throw out the “leftovers”.
(if you have 10,000iu vials)
There will be days where the the HCG and the T shots are the same day. There are many here that inject them together (HCG&T).
I inject my T EOD, and the HCG on the other EOD, that’s just the schedule I’m on.

…for the time being I’m kinda stuck doing the Mon/Thurs IM injects at the doctor’s office. In time, I’m hoping that he gives me the green light to start doing my own home injections, but until that day I don’t want to rock the boat too much.

It’s complicated, but it’s my family MD that finally okay’d the injects (vs the gel that my old Urologist scripted). I meet with a new Endo on May 22nd, so until that date I don’t think that I’ll be able to change the M/Th ‘injects at the office’ schedule.

I’m meeting with the MD next Monday to discuss the hCG and I’m hoping that he’ll be okay with me doing the SC self-injects with it. I was reading “AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL” by John Crisler.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html (see HCG Update)

In this article Dr. Crissler seems to have changed his tune with regards to injecting hCG the day before and then the day of injecting the test. That’s why I was originally thinking that I’d do the Sun/Wed (day before) hCG schedule.

It’s too bad they don’t have a 5000IU option when it comes to the hCG. At around $85cdn per script (Cdn), I hate the thought of wasting close to half the vial by doing 250IU twice/week over an 80day (or 11 week) span. I’ll only using about 5500IU of a 10000IU vial.

What about doing this:

Mon - 50mg test
Tues - xxx
Wed - 250IU hCG
Thurs - 50mg test
Fri - xxx
Sat - 250IU hCG
Sun - 250IU hCG

It’s a little closer to the Crissler protocol of injecting 250IU/day for the two days ‘prior’ to injecting the test?..hebs

I may be confused here (I just read the article, twice) but it appears his change in protocol is in referenced by T levels that get “too high” from the addition of HCG to weekly HRT, as well as he uses the “new” protocol only referencing “weekly T-Cyp injections”. He does not discuss his protocol for twice weekly injections and HRT.

To decrease the mid week slide towards lower T levels (roller coastering) he suggests HCG two days before, and the day of.
If you inject more than 500iu in an injection, you may be desensitizing exactly what it is you are trying to stimulate.
Since he approves of HCG and T on the same day, it appears an EOD protocol of HCG injections even if they overlap your T shots are “approved”.

If you go to an EOD injection schedule of HCG now, you will very likely “fail” the Total T section of your next blood work with Testosterone levels too high to be “legal”.
The protocol you have laid out above looks good, and quite functional.

After your doctor allows you to do your own shots at home, then you can figure the best protocol for you.

…albeit were not exactly comparing apples to apples because he is talking about weekly test cyp injections, but what I got out of the article was that in his original protocol, TRT: A Recipe for Success…

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

…he uses this method for administering hCG:

“In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection.”

In the new article he’s now suggesting:

“…I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot”

So there is no ‘overlap’ in test/hCG injects being done on the same day, that’s why I was thinking of doing the Wed/Sat/Sun hCG injects.

His explanation for changing:

“I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.”

Are we seeing the same thing or am I confused on this?..hebs

Since he quotes that HCG will “boost serum testosterone too much”, that is the reason for his change in protocol. The AMA says you are only, legally, supposed to be, exactly, a certain serum testosterone level and no higher… I’m sure my total T numbers are higher than they were with just T shots, and I like the calm serenity I have now so much more than before…
So, what I get is; he doesn’t want his patient’s T levels “too high” (higher than the “averages”) as the AMA, and the FDA, if not the DEA, will make his life difficult otherwise.

…gotcha, thanks for all the help. Now it’s up to the doctor as to whether or not he wants to script it to me…hebs

Tell him your testicles ache, and your scrotum doesn’t hang like it used to. That should do it for most doctors. Oh yeah, bring printouts of stuff from Dr.Crisler too.

Let’s not forget that the goal is stability and that’s why he is also talking about the natural cycle is for LH to rise as T goes down and so administering the hCG on the same day as T is counterproductive to the goal of stability.

As you say, he doesn’t really address how much this applies to EOD or even twice weekly injections but this is clearly an area where experimentation might be worthwhile.

For those of us on an EOD protocol, this would mean injecting something every day and if you’re going to do that, then why not also just mix your T and hCG into daily doses for maximum stability of both?

I mix T and hCG in the same injection EOD and I feel great and I don’t rollercoaster, so for me, the ED scheme is a hard sell.

I agree that hebs has the right idea for his schedule.

[quote]KNB wrote:
Tell him your testicles ache, and your scrotum doesn’t hang like it used to. That should do it for most doctors.[/quote]

…the sad part is that they really do ache and they’ve already shrunk about 1/3 of their natural size! My scrotum started to ‘shrivel’ up around day 25 and has been that way ever since (currently on day 50).

I just dropped off a good half-dozen different articles last Friday so that he’d have a chance to review them before we meet next Monday. My MD is actually pretty keen and is quite interested in learning more about this. It just gets tricky for him because from what I understand, it should be either an Endo or a Urologist that’s scripting and deciding TRT protocols and not a regular GP.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
As you say, he doesn’t really address how much this applies to EOD or even twice weekly injections but this is clearly an area where experimentation might be worthwhile.[/quote]

…experimentation is key for me. When it comes to TRT, nothing is as easy as it seems laid out on paper!

…EOD is where I would like to be once I get the okay to start to doing self-injects at home.

…when you say that you ‘mix T and hCG’, does that mean that you inject both in the same syringe? This would mean that you’d be injecting both IM then too?

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Let’s not forget that the goal is stability and that’s why he is also talking about the natural cycle is for LH to rise as T goes down and so administering the hCG on the same day as T is counterproductive to the goal of stability.

As you say, he doesn’t really address how much this applies to EOD or even twice weekly injections but this is clearly an area where experimentation might be worthwhile.

For those of us on an EOD protocol, this would mean injecting something every day and if you’re going to do that, then why not also just mix your T and hCG into daily doses for maximum stability of both?

I mix T and hCG in the same injection EOD and I feel great and I don’t rollercoaster, so for me, the ED scheme is a hard sell.

I agree that hebs has the right idea for his schedule.[/quote]

I’m confused… You start out saying mixing T and HCG is counterproductive, then you say you inject them together.
What am I missing here? Thank in advance.

The goal of the HCG on the 2 days prior to T is to get your own production up as the Cyp is declining in the bloodstream.

Sorry to say this but I don’t care for this particular doctor. He recently cut his VOV time and jacked his prices. I’m glad I’m on my own.

[quote]hebsie wrote:
KNB wrote:
Tell him your testicles ache, and your scrotum doesn’t hang like it used to. That should do it for most doctors.

…the sad part is that they really do ache and they’ve already shrunk about 1/3 of their natural size! My scrotum started to ‘shrivel’ up around day 25 and has been that way ever since (currently on day 50).

Oh yeah, bring printouts of stuff from Dr.Crisler too.

I just dropped off a good half-dozen different articles last Friday so that he’d have a chance to review them before we meet next Monday. My MD is actually pretty keen and is quite interested in learning more about this. It just gets tricky for him because from what I understand, it should be either an Endo or a Urologist that’s scripting and deciding TRT protocols and not a regular GP.

[/quote]
My Internal Medicine M.D. informed me that he could not prescribe Hcg, something to do with the FDA. According to him, I would need to see an Endocrinologist.

That is a crock. It is a shedule-III drug, the same as testosterone.

[quote]KNB wrote:
happydog48 wrote:
Let’s not forget that the goal is stability and that’s why he is also talking about the natural cycle is for LH to rise as T goes down and so administering the hCG on the same day as T is counterproductive to the goal of stability.

As you say, he doesn’t really address how much this applies to EOD or even twice weekly injections but this is clearly an area where experimentation might be worthwhile.

For those of us on an EOD protocol, this would mean injecting something every day and if you’re going to do that, then why not also just mix your T and hCG into daily doses for maximum stability of both?

I mix T and hCG in the same injection EOD and I feel great and I don’t rollercoaster, so for me, the ED scheme is a hard sell.

I agree that hebs has the right idea for his schedule.

I’m confused… You start out saying mixing T and HCG is counterproductive, then you say you inject them together.
What am I missing here? Thank in advance.
[/quote]

Same time, not in the same syringe. hCG is SC, T is IM.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The goal of the HCG on the 2 days prior to T is to get your own production up as the Cyp is declining in the bloodstream.
[/quote]

hCG should be to maintain the testes. If one feels a problem from dropping T when injecting every week, it is much more effective to then inject T twice a week.

hCG does not lift T enough for many. Example: test cyp took me to 886. Adding hCG took me to 1025. Both at 3.5 days at the then weekly injections. That was with 250iu hCG SC EOD. With only two injections of hCG per week, what would be the benefit of a 100 point change… small stuff.

Some of the end of week blahs may be from T levels not been able to keep up with the effects of uncontrolled E levels.

[quote]KSman wrote:
That is a crock. It is a shedule-III drug, the same as testosterone.[/quote]

When the Godfather speaks, I pay attention.
This final straw is sending me to a new Doc, an Endocrinologist.