T Nation

HCG Contradictions


#1

Every post or article I read on HCG seriously contradicts the one before it. Some say take it on cycle, say some dont. Some say you can pin once a week, some say at least every other day. Soooo, heres the deal. I just started a cycle of Test E at 500mg a week/ 16 weeks. I was planning on running HCG concurrent with the test at 1000 IU'S a week. I plan on pinning the hcg every other day. Its that a solid plan for the cycle? Im not going to bring up PCT yet, I just need clarification on the HCG during cycle part. Also, when would I start it? Immediately or a couple of weeks in?


#2

250iu twice or thrice weekly from the get go


#3

Agreed, 1000u is a bit high for that cycle. 250 at a time would be fine, you can load it right into your syringe alongside your gear and put it in together. Or just find a spot subq


#4

yeah, you don’t need a ton of HCG on cycle… basically enough to send a signal to your testes to keep them active.

however, by keeping the testes active, you can expect to have more aromatization of testosterone into estrogen (as the testes have a significant role in this process).

i’d make sure to start a low dose of an AI, as well…


#5

Probably the basic reason for seeing so many variations in advice is that HCG use doesn’t require particularly precise dosing or use protocols. The ranges that are useful are pretty wide.

The main thing is not doing it the wrong way, which is what used to be the norm: allowing the testicles to atrophy for the entire length of the cycle, and then slamming them in PCT.

So long as the testes are in good shape going into PCT, then the HCG use during cycle was fine. This could be from using it in only say the last 4 weeks of the cycle, or could be from using throughout. It could be from using at 500 IU per week throughout, or from using it at 500-1500 IU per week in the last (for example) 4 weeks, though at least 750 IU/week would be better if leaving use towards the end.

It’s also possible to use larger doses and get away with it, but it’s not necessary to do so.

So a wide variety of advice is given, as often anyone who has done something in a particular way will then advise that way, without necessarily having tried anything else for comparison. Even a doctor, for example, may have always prescribed 3000 IU at a time injections, and never having tried anything less, be insistent that he’s been doing it this way for 20 years and his method is proven.


#6

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Probably the basic reason for seeing so many variations in advice is that HCG use doesn’t require particularly precise dosing or use protocols. The ranges that are useful are pretty wide.

The main thing is not doing it the wrong way, which is what used to be the norm: allowing the testicles to atrophy for the entire length of the cycle, and then slamming them in PCT.

So long as the testes are in good shape going into PCT, then the HCG use during cycle was fine. This could be from using it in only say the last 4 weeks of the cycle, or could be from using throughout. It could be from using at 500 IU per week throughout, or from using it at 500-1500 IU per week in the last (for example) 4 weeks, though at least 750 IU/week would be better if leaving use towards the end.

It’s also possible to use larger doses and get away with it, but it’s not necessary to do so.

So a wide variety of advice is given, as often anyone who has done something in a particular way will then advise that way, without necessarily having tried anything else for comparison. Even a doctor, for example, may have always prescribed 3000 IU at a time injections, and never having tried anything less, be insistent that he’s been doing it this way for 20 years and his method is proven.

[/quote]

How many days before starting PCT with a SERM should one discontinue HCG use? I have read that 3-4 days is all that is necessary, but I have also read that discontinuing HCG 2 weeks prior to taking a SERM allows the Leydig cells to become more sensitive to LH.


#7

When using doses of HCG that I recommend (up to about 1750 IU/week; it’s not that this is an exact cutoff but rather it’s simply the round value of 250 IU/day x 7 days) if there is any Leydig cell sensitivity issue I’d think it is too subtle to be of any importance.

There is some evidence that very high doses of HCG, such as 5000-10,000 IU at a time, downregulate the LH receptor; there is also conflicting opinion. But far, far less than this is needed to be completely useful. (Almost any drug will show problems when dosed 10 or more times more heavily than necessary for excellent effect.)

The main reason for letting HCG largely clear the system prior to PCT is so that it won’t be artificially elevating T levels. Another is to avoid any possibility of HCG itself inhibiting LH production: there’s some pharmacological suggestion of this, and observations that measured LH seems lower for any given free T level when it’s achieved via HCG rathr than injecting a little extra T. Those observations aren’t formal and I’m sure wouldn’t be to statistical significance if I’d compiled them, so if that reason is found unconvincing or disagreed with by any, fair enough there!

As the half life is only a day or two, only a few days wait is needed for levels to fall to where they should not interfere substantially with recovery.


#8

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
When using doses of HCG that I recommend (up to about 1750 IU/week; it’s not that this is an exact cutoff but rather it’s simply the round value of 250 IU/day x 7 days) if there is any Leydig cell sensitivity issue I’d think it is too subtle to be of any importance.

There is some evidence that very high doses of HCG, such as 5000-10,000 IU at a time, downregulate the LH receptor; there is also conflicting opinion. But far, far less than this is needed to be completely useful. (Almost any drug will show problems when dosed 10 or more times more heavily than necessary for excellent effect.)

The main reason for letting HCG largely clear the system prior to PCT is so that it won’t be artificially elevating T levels. Another is to avoid any possibility of HCG itself inhibiting LH production: there’s some pharmacological suggestion of this, and observations that measured LH seems lower for any given free T level when it’s achieved via HCG rathr than injecting a little extra T. Those observations aren’t formal and I’m sure wouldn’t be to statistical significance if I’d compiled them, so if that reason is found unconvincing or disagreed with by any, fair enough there!

As the half life is only a day or two, only a few days wait is needed for levels to fall to where they should not interfere substantially with recovery.[/quote]

what would be the most convenient dose of Aromasin (if needed?) for 500 hcg / week?

You don’t agree that HCG would be enough (substitute to injecting test) to elevate test to counter suppression of mild substances like primo depot?


#9

HCG absolutely is enough to maintain normal estradiol level when doing a non-aromatizing cycle, such as Primobolan. If during a non-aromatizing cycle, Aromasin isn’t needed at the same time.


#10

[quote]Twolverine wrote:
You don’t agree that HCG would be enough (substitute to injecting test) to elevate test to counter suppression of mild substances like primo depot?[/quote]

Man, I’ve explained this to you in simple terms multiple times already…

I’ll give you the concise terms. You can google them.

HCG only keeps your testicles working by mimicing LH(Luteinzing Hormone), thus artificially stimulating them to produce testosterone.

Because your testicles are producing testosterone enabled by an exogeneous substance(HCG), your hypothalamus stops producing GnRH(Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone), which leads to your pituitary not making LH. You are still suppressed. There is no way of preventing this if you want to use steroids. You will eventually be shut down.


#11

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:
You don’t agree that HCG would be enough (substitute to injecting test) to elevate test to counter suppression of mild substances like primo depot?[/quote]

Man, I’ve explained this to you in simple terms multiple times already…

I’ll give you the concise terms. You can google them.

HCG only keeps your testicles working by mimicing LH(Luteinzing Hormone), thus artificially stimulating them to produce testosterone.

Because your testicles are producing testosterone enabled by an exogeneous substance(HCG), your hypothalamus stops producing GnRH(Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone), which leads to your pituitary not making LH. You are still suppressed. There is no way of preventing this if you want to use steroids. You will eventually be shut down.[/quote]

perfectly clear from the first time except that you disagreed that it would be enough to maintain enough test / estradiol levels. Seems from Bill here that it would be enough to stack with a low dose of primo instead of test

yes i will be shut down anyways but i will avoid androgenic effects of test in addition to the quicker recovery during pct.


#12

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
HCG absolutely is enough to maintain normal estradiol level when doing a non-aromatizing cycle, such as Primobolan. If during a non-aromatizing cycle, Aromasin isn’t needed at the same time.

[/quote]

correct me if i’m wrong pls on the above response to dt79


#13

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:
You don’t agree that HCG would be enough (substitute to injecting test) to elevate test to counter suppression of mild substances like primo depot?[/quote]

Man, I’ve explained this to you in simple terms multiple times already…

I’ll give you the concise terms. You can google them.

HCG only keeps your testicles working by mimicing LH(Luteinzing Hormone), thus artificially stimulating them to produce testosterone.

Because your testicles are producing testosterone enabled by an exogeneous substance(HCG), your hypothalamus stops producing GnRH(Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone), which leads to your pituitary not making LH. You are still suppressed. There is no way of preventing this if you want to use steroids. You will eventually be shut down.[/quote]

perfectly clear from the first time except that you disagreed that it would be enough to maintain enough test / estradiol levels. Seems from Bill here that it would be enough to stack with a low dose of primo instead of test

yes i will be shut down anyways but i will avoid androgenic effects of test in addition to the quicker recovery during pct.[/quote]

Show me where I disagreed.

Edit.

I told you your low primo, HCG as test replacement cycle wouldn’t be worth doing and you would have similar gains using an OCT supplement.

Edit


#14

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
HCG absolutely is enough to maintain normal estradiol level when doing a non-aromatizing cycle, such as Primobolan. If during a non-aromatizing cycle, Aromasin isn’t needed at the same time.

[/quote]

correct me if i’m wrong pls on the above response to dt79[/quote]
Within this thread I didn’t see where either your or dt79 have been wrong on anything or really where there was a disagreement. Did I miss a point where there was disagreement?


#15

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Twolverine wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
HCG absolutely is enough to maintain normal estradiol level when doing a non-aromatizing cycle, such as Primobolan. If during a non-aromatizing cycle, Aromasin isn’t needed at the same time.

[/quote]

correct me if i’m wrong pls on the above response to dt79[/quote]
Within this thread I didn’t see where either your or dt79 have been wrong on anything or really where there was a disagreement. Did I miss a point where there was disagreement? [/quote]

Nope. He probably misunderstood what I wrote to him in a previous thread. But he’s not being confrontational here, it’s just the way he expresses himself in writing.


#16

Great, everything is clear then!


#17

Bill when does Primo shut you down? I read somewhere after 2 weeks. Meanwhile the stickies here state that Nolva regulates steady test after 2 months, if that is true why do I see pct’s for 4-6 weeks for mild cycles?