My prolactin levels have been 2.2 ug/L and 5.9 ug/L (< 15)
What I was thinking might be some signaling from LH or hCG to breast tissue in pregnant women. Since the science of milk development still isn’t entirely known it doesn’t seem impossible. Or perhaps it’s a tumor response or precancerous cells.
If I just have the mass cut out, I’m sure I’d be cured.
[quote]KSman wrote:
[/quote]
Great find! I found the full text here if anyone is interested: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2003-031882
Well I guess that answers my questions.
This is interesting. Did you have issues with gyno in your prime with healthy test and LH levels?
[quote]Igs wrote:
This is interesting. Did you have issues with gyno in your prime with healthy test and LH levels?[/quote]
Yes, and this recent article reminded me of it. When puberty hit me hard at 12 my nipples got sore and swollen for a few months. Probably when LH was being released in larger than usual quantities.
And keep in mind that most guys using hCG for years never have any issues like this.
Might be a difference in methylation, exposing or hiding genes that normally would not be. This can be or some would define as an epigenetic change. It has, lately, been shown that epi-genetic changes can be inherited even though there are not changes to the DNA itself. There are cases were such changes have been tracked for 3-4 generations. [When we see guys who get that from hair loss meds that trash their HPTA’s [deca only cycles can do that too], one now has to worry about the effects on their offspring. The vulnerability to that might be an epigenetic change as well.]
This might also explain why some are hyper-metabolizers of T or anastrozole over-responders. And all of this may be the tip of the iceberg as there may be a huge amount of parallels in other drug/disease contexts.
Yeah I’ve been exposed to a lot of possible epigenetic risk factors. Heavy metals, cigarette smoke, gasoline, paint, cleaners and solvents, you name it.
[quote]Igs wrote:
This is interesting. Did you have issues with gyno in your prime with healthy test and LH levels?[/quote]
I did not have gyno issues outside of a little lump during puberty until my hormone issues came about. This article is pretty wild though, and goes against most current bro science as it relates to gyno.
Wonder if this is why I can’t take HCG.
-Jim
[quote]Jimstigator wrote:
[quote]Igs wrote:
This is interesting. Did you have issues with gyno in your prime with healthy test and LH levels?[/quote]
I did not have gyno issues outside of a little lump during puberty until my hormone issues came about. This article is pretty wild though, and goes against most current bro science as it relates to gyno.
Wonder if this is why I can’t take HCG.
-Jim[/quote]
I guess it just goes to show you how differently wired we all are. One size fits one and one only. I, for example need one tenth of normal AI dose or my E2 crashes hard.
Well, after taking a break from hCG and using Clomiphene with zero response, I decided to try hCG again at a lower dose.
At 80units E3D my testes have improved slightly in volume and seems to have little affect on my gyno. I’m hoping I eventually lose the gyno sensitivity.
At 80units E3D after only 4 consecutive shots the mass is swollen again but my testes are at about 80%. I’m going to go down to 50units and see what happens.
This is wrong. With respect, please stop repeating this throughout the forums. Many men have reported symptoms of their breast tissue being directly responsive to even small doses of hCG, all while controlling E2 through the use of an AI. In fact, many unfortunately have crashed their E2, while thinking along the lines of your statement. Most only find relief by stopping hCG or using a SERM in addition to their AI.
Oh, and there’s also scientific evidence to back up their claims…Read: Presence of luteinizing hormone/human chorionic gonadotropin receptors in male breast tissues - PubMed
Whatever is going on hCG peptide is not activating estrogen steroid receptors. Can hCG be causing local estrogen production? Could hCG be causing creation of local breast tissue growth factors? - interesting thought
Cause and effect may not be the mechanism you think. But perhaps that does not matter. We have guys who get gyno taking SERM’s, another puzzle.
If E2 crashes with an AI, the dose is the problem, not the AI. If hCG dose is high or LH high from too much SERM, AI often cannot lower SERM E2, let alone crash E2. AI use needs to be guided by lab results. Trying to flesh out your crash statement.
I know that LH, hCG and FSH receptors are found outside of the gonads. We have good evidence of that with how guys have great mood changes with hCG introduced on its own, with or after TRT that has strong implications for receptors in the brain. The existence of receptors in breast tissue does not mean anything absolute, at least for most guys. hCG receptors in the brain does not mean that breasts grow in anyone’s brains.
I will go with this:
hCG peptide does not activate steroid estrogen receptors. In somewhat rare cases, hCG may be activating a different growth pathway. There may be cases where different gene expression activations lead to the same downstream growth pathways. The role of any elevated levels of prolactin in these is not known but could be a contributing factor.
Most cases of gyno are mostly driven by estrogens and prolactin would amplify that. Some gyno seems oddly resistant to SERM’s [rare].
Yes, some guys think that gyno is a result of either high E2 or high E2 + high prolactin, and in the process of trying to control their gyno, they end up taking too much AI (crashing their E2) or too much SERM (compounding the problem.)
I think that gyno is more complicated than we currently understand. It’s just been clear to me from skimming the forums on many sites that I frequently read the same story over and over again…someone who is responsibly monitoring and controlling their E2 (and prolactin), and yet still develops a gyno response to hCG. Even guys that say they feel better when on hCG have had this occur, which is the case in my situation.
I was on TRT for 3 months with no gyno and then as soon as I added hCG, my chest flared up and within the first week I developed a glandular mass. I tested my E2 Sensitive, which is being managed by AI, and it came back at a healthy 24. My prolactin is within the normal range as well. So this clearly demonstrates that hCG can cause gyno even when E2 is healthy and the individual feels good.
Yea, unfortunately this is where research has nothing more to add and we are left wondering how to balance getting gyno with the desire for fertility…ughh
I was able to stay on HCG, despite gyno issues, by going low daily doses. 50iu daily restored my fertility from 0 after a year on TRT to now I have a 4 month old! I currently run about 80iu EOD and it keeps things moving along.
Good luck!
Jim
I’ve got gynecomastia, but no apparent cause. My E2 levels (pre-TRT) were relatively low. However, I’ve got high levels of LH.
That would suggest dosing me up with HCG will make matters worse.
Thanks for posting the link to the article @KSman and @C27_H40_O3.
How are you holding up with 80iu EOD? Still getting results?
Sorry to revive an old thread but I’m in the same situation and wondered where everyone is with this. Have had a Gyno response from HCG despite everything else being in check. Have confirmed it’s HCG by coming off/on over the past few months to confirm. If I can’t take HCG I’m guessing I’m out of luck for preserving fertility on TRT?
Yep! 50-70 EOD. Still on it, still works. That dose brought me from zero fertility to now having a 1 year old 
Appreciate the reply. I’ll give it a shot. I presume your Gyno issues have disappeared with that dose?
There are other routes to try; the most common being nolvadex or clomid.