After only 6 weeks of hCG I’ve got a golfball sized painful mass with nodules. I’m surprised more people haven’t responded to it like I did. The sad part is I felt great on it.
That’s amazing though unfortunate. I had the opposite response. No gyno, but felt awful on it. I always suspected that it was doing something to my E2 level to make me feel awful (though couldn’t manage to confirm it with labs). Did you have any labs done during the period when the growth occurred?
Yes very unfortunate. Once I realized how far the mass had progressed I discontinued hCG of 200iu EOD. I didn’t have time to make an appointment to get labs done so I have no idea where my numbers are at. I am on anastrazole 0.5 E3D but have been adding 0.25 on day 2 since this happened. Painful, embarrassing, depressing and just a disappointment.
That sucks man, I know I certainly feel better with hcg in the mix. Are you going to require surgery?
Too much stimulation of your LH receptors in the testes. You did not describe your dose etc. Same problems from too much clomid/nolvadex.
Some need to use lower doses.
When dose of the above is too high and T–>E2 conversion in the testes is very high, anastrozole cannot control your E2 levels because it cannot work inside the testes [for reasons stated in the stickies]
Were you taking 250iu EOD?
Is there a dosing/mixing error?
KSMAN, while on the topic - this situation is something of a catch 22.
Say - you just started TRT (test cyp/hcg) and got an immediate nipple response from the hormone jolt/doses too high. In order to control the nipple sensation/tissue growth, you add in Nolvadex immediately which starts to tame it, while also backing off the test cyp/hcg. Would the nolva actually be causing more problems? How do you fight off that initial gyno problem properly?
Any changes in hcg dose might take weeks to fully hash out, and one would think the best protection of nipples during this process is nolva. Is it safe to stop HCG for a period of time, while using nolva to battle that gyno surge, then try and phase hcg back in? What detriment to fertility/testes size might be caused during that period?
I left out mention of an AI, as at least for me, it didn’t do jack but lower the number on paper. E2 came back at 7 and my joints started to ache, but the nipples charged ahead full bore (like they were lit on fire) right from the start.
Thoughts?
Jim
Hey KSman, I was prescribed 250iu E3D of hCG but saw your information and the recommendation to go to 250 EOD. I figured that since my response was so good, dropping the 50units wasn’t a big deal. Good to know that anastrazole isn’t going to help in this case, thanks! No chance of an error though.
My system seems to be hypersensitive to anything. Would 100units EOD be too low do you think?
Hey C27, I’m sure you are aware but you need to treat the gyno before it becomes fibrous. I had a very aggressive case of gyno on my left breast while on a max dose of Androgel. I had very good results treating it with Raloxifene.
Its fibrous and nodular already. It’s like a four headed monster now. Surgery seems imminent unless it shrinks back to the size it was before the hCG.
What I’ve done for now is discontinue the hCG.
I thought I was destined for a second surgery as the lump was almost the size of a golf ball. I read that someone recently referred to themselves as an “over aromatizer”. I would fall into this category. The Evista “Raloxifene” worked extremely well and the lump was no longer visible after the Raloxifene.I still have small bumps but I can live with those.
Although my Endo will not prescribe an AI he did go “off label” with the Evista. Do what you can to avoid surgery.
This is how I plan to stay on top of any possible negative effects of TRT, PCT at lest until my personal response (Blood levels) to any change in protocol becomes known to me.
LifeExtension Foundation, great place for information and blood testing:
The Male Basic Hormone Panel includes:
DHEA-S
Estradiol (an estrogen)
Free and Total Testosterone
PSA
$56.25
Update: I stopped using hCG May 28. Since then the gyno receeded to a smaller softer mass that I could live with and didn’t cause shooting pain all day.
June 17 I switched to SC injections, this time in areas not associated with the abdomen and I feel great. I have a feeling the portal vein system interferes with absorption around the navel as many veins in the area pass next through the liver. I also suspect the abdominal fat has different characteristics than the rest of our adipose tissue.
July 14, started up with 150iu hCG E3D to bring my testicles back. After 3 injections my testes have barely recovered but the gyno has doubled in size, grown noticeable lumps and I’m back to the shooting pain. I think LH has a direct action on breast growth.
Don’t call hCG LH. hCG sensitive breast tissue would be the first time I have ever heard of that.
Its the estrogen that is the problem. You need T+AI to manage E2 levels and SERM can help if you cannot get near E2=22.
Would be interesting to see E2 labs with and without hCG. Could hCG be mixed incorrectly - too strong?
Well, gyno is listed as a side but like you mention it’s likely E2 associated. I just can’t help wonder since it happens in a matter of days. I’m on 50mg Tcyp + 0.5mg anastrozole + 100iu hCG all E3D.
I’m going to try another day of 100iu and then get labs to see.
Why go so crazy with HCG? I use as little as possible which is about 200iu a month. That does the job!
Got some lab work done
758 ng/dL TT
17 pg/mL E2
[quote]C27 H40 O3 wrote:
Got some lab work done
758 ng/dL TT
17 pg/mL E2
[/quote]
People say I am crazy - but this is also my expierence with HCG. A gyno lump started to grow and my nipples were sensitive as hell when on HCG. My sensitive E at the time, <5. Retested two more times over the course of a month… all under 10. Prolactin, low, progesterone, low.
I still can’t explain it. Dr has since taken me off HCG to iron out test cyp alone. 100mg a week injected EOD keeps my TT average 900. Curious what adjustments I can make, if any, to re-incorporate HCG.
-Jim
[quote]brentf13 wrote:
Why go so crazy with HCG? I use as little as possible which is about 200iu a month. That does the job![/quote]
When you say does the job, you mean this small of a dose keeps your balls to size, and helps fertility? Have you had a semen analysis done?
I did right around start of TRT a few months ago and I was perfect. Have another in August, which will have been after 2 months no HCG.
-Jim
[quote]Jimstigator wrote:
People say I am crazy - but this is also my expierence with HCG. A gyno lump started to grow and my nipples were sensitive as hell when on HCG. My sensitive E at the time, <5. Retested two more times over the course of a month… all under 10. Prolactin, low, progesterone, low.
I still can’t explain it. [/quote]
I wish I could explain it as well. Just 3 shots of 150iu and 1 of 100iu got my boys half-full(optimist) and caused the swelling and pain again.
I feel great on hCG though I think it’s worth coming back to it at maybe 80iu E6D and see what develops.
As soon as I stopped hCG, the mass became less swollen and painful. Back on 25mg E3D of Clomiphene instead. However Clomid seems to do little for testes volume.
hCG does not activate breast tissue, E2 or E2+prolactin does. If E2 lab work shows levels near E2=22pg/ml, that really does not seem to explain gyno unless prolactin is a player.
When hCG leads to high T–>E2 inside the testes, serum E2 will be high and that will resist attempts to control with anastrozole. If something is happening that it totally contrary to all of this; I have no explanation and then something very odd is happening which might include something very different about the individual. If the latter, then one could try a SERM and find a low dose that keeps the testes firm. If there no gyno with that, then we might assume that for some hCG can act very differently than LH+FSH. Please also note that LH, FSH, prolactin and hCG are peptide hormones and these cannot activate steroid hormone receptors even if one’s steroid receptor are different than the norm. So if there was this speculated hCG-LH differentiation, that implies that the gene expression in the nucleus is different for LH/FSH. That would be a major insight if true. So that all seems like a lot of speculation, but is this really possible? Perhaps. We do see that there are a few guys where hCG gene expression in the testes seems to be different when we see major T–>E2 inside the testes with low dose hCG. So it seems possible that there might be some gene expression differences in breast tissue in rare cases. We can only resolve this by affected guys doing some research work and reporting.
If there is something odd going on, perhaps it is hCG activating an abnormal prolactin receptor, a genetic or epi-genetic difference.
On a lighter note: We could term the rare hyper T–>E2 problem in the testes as an odd-ball response.