T Nation

HCG and PCT

Hi guys,

First of all i would like to say, i love this forum and i have learned a lot from you guys. I’m about to embark on my first cycle and i’m very excited. I have been doing a lot of research over the last year or so andi had one final stumbling block. I had an issue with PCT. After reading Anabolics 2007 (about 30times) i decided that i wanted to use HCG and didn’t want to do your test taper.

I know that a lot of you guys love it and it works well for you, but i just can’t get my head around it. I dont like it! So for the passed month i have been searching the web in my free time looking for a different pct choice, i didn’t know how to use HCG and i wanted to be sure on everything before i started.

So, i found this: elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/new-post-cycle-therapy-2008-a-582357.html
It tells how to use HCG and nolvaldex/clomid for pct - just what i was looking for.

I want the opinions of you guys on HCG and this pct and also on the fropical cream and taco-8 which he is obviously selling!!

This will be my cycle:
W1-12 Test E 500mg/E3D
W1-4 Dbol 30mg ED
W9-12 Winny tabs 50mg ED
W3-12 HCG 250IU’s twice a week
W1-12 Adex 1mg/ED ?
W13-16 Nolva 10mg/day

Please reply even if u think i’m an idiot!
Cheers,

Joe.

Most likely too much arimidex. I doubt you need both dbol and winstrol in a first cycle. If you eat enough it’s almost guarenteed that you’ll be very pleased with the results.

No good on the PCT either. Test E needs time to clear the system before you try to kickstart the HPTA with nolvadex, so you don’t start it the week after you stop the test. I’m sure you’ll be able to figure out why…

Just because Anabolics 2007 suggest one method - conventional PCT, doesn�??t mean it�??s the only way or even the best. That being said, there is nothing wrong with conventional PCT in the general sense.

You can�??t get your head around the taper? Or Hcg use? The taper should make sense to anyone that doesn�??t believe that exogenous testosterone permanently suppresses someone, does birth control cause permanent damage to women? Again though, conventional PCT is fine �?? they both work, the decision has more to do with future plans and timelines regarding future cycles and whatnot, rather than what works better �?? they both have their pros and cons.

The Hcg use looks real good. I would start HCG as soon as suppression starts at the testicular level �?? about 4-5 days. Start at the end of week 1 and run through the end as the low 250iu dose will be efficient and effective with the little suppression that starts soon into a cycle, the idea of waiting until it has kicked in harder is warranted, but not necessary with the small dose to avoid desensitization.

I like his cream as far as the idea behind it. Nolvadex is a standard for conventional PCT, but is not needed, and with running HCG during the cycle and coming off with testosterone as the last steroid to leave your body, endogenous production should not be a problem with time and support. The stuff in his cream is stuff that I would recommend even with standard PCT. I would honestly reconsider a taper at this point though, but without the long stasis period which would be unwarranted with your planned cycle. Spend 6 weeks coming off and probably add his cream during that time and you should have a awesome recovery without a crash or worsening overall health.

If you stick without a taper, then I would run the Winstrol 2 weeks past your last shot and right up to PCT.

Drop the Arimidex dose by at least half: really if you ever need more than .5mg/day you should consider a more effective i.e. stronger AI like Letrozole as 1mg offers very little benefit over .5mg. .25mg/day might be plenty, I’d probably run .25mg/day and .5mg on Hcg days though the timing is a bit arbitary the total dose would be a bit higher at 2.25mg/week as oppose to 1.75mg/week. If you are running liquid Arimidex I would shoot for .33mg/day simply because of what my numbers read at .25mg/day and 300mg/test - in other words something between .25mg-.5mg/day should be ideal, and you want your estrogen to remain within normal physiological ranges without raising too high (which they will without an AI - on anyone) and too low if you take too much, luckily Arimidex is somewhat self-limiting, though I hate saying that as it’s a bit too conclusive, it is for the most part true with sensable dosing.

Also run the AI 2 weeks past your last shot and then start the Nolvadex if you stay conventional. If you switch to a taper then simply taper off the AI over 3 weeks and your done. The Nolvadex dose looks good IMO as higher doses only protect against estrogen rather than offer more testosterone stimulation according to documented studies.

By the way, I don�??t think you are a idiot at all. I commend your research into your cycle and appreciate that you are looking at several routes and ideas �?? that is not par for the course as most simply copy others and call it research. Well done and keep it up.

(I know I can get to rambling, hope the post made sense)

Im a pretty big fan of a just test first cycle, but dbol would be the only gear I might add.

If its your first cycle your going to be inexperienced, you want to keep it simple, your going to gain like a god no matter what with just test.

The less stuff you have that can you can mess up or account for sideeffects with the better it will be.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Most likely too much arimidex. I doubt you need both dbol and winstrol in a first cycle. If you eat enough it’s almost guarenteed that you’ll be very pleased with the results.

No good on the PCT either. Test E needs time to clear the system before you try to kickstart the HPTA with nolvadex, so you don’t start it the week after you stop the test. I’m sure you’ll be able to figure out why…[/quote]

yes you’re right, i should have said 14-18 nolva. well thats just the cycle i was playing around with a few months ago but just looking at the calender there and christmas coming up (which will involve travelling to parents for a week) i will probably go for a test prop only cycle of 150mg/EOD for 8 weeks.

[quote]TheBeat2 wrote:
Just because Anabolics 2007 suggest one method - conventional PCT, doesn�??t mean it�??s the only way or even the best. That being said, there is nothing wrong with conventional PCT in the general sense.

You can�??t get your head around the taper? Or Hcg use? The taper should make sense to anyone that doesn�??t believe that exogenous testosterone permanently suppresses someone, does birth control cause permanent damage to women? Again though, conventional PCT is fine �?? they both work, the decision has more to do with future plans and timelines regarding future cycles and whatnot, rather than what works better �?? they both have their pros and cons.

The Hcg use looks real good. I would start HCG as soon as suppression starts at the testicular level �?? about 4-5 days. Start at the end of week 1 and run through the end as the low 250iu dose will be efficient and effective with the little suppression that starts soon into a cycle, the idea of waiting until it has kicked in harder is warranted, but not necessary with the small dose to avoid desensitization.

I like his cream as far as the idea behind it. Nolvadex is a standard for conventional PCT, but is not needed, and with running HCG during the cycle and coming off with testosterone as the last steroid to leave your body, endogenous production should not be a problem with time and support. The stuff in his cream is stuff that I would recommend even with standard PCT. I would honestly reconsider a taper at this point though, but without the long stasis period which would be unwarranted with your planned cycle. Spend 6 weeks coming off and probably add his cream during that time and you should have a awesome recovery without a crash or worsening overall health.

If you stick without a taper, then I would run the Winstrol 2 weeks past your last shot and right up to PCT.

Drop the Arimidex dose by at least half: really if you ever need more than .5mg/day you should consider a more effective i.e. stronger AI like Letrozole as 1mg offers very little benefit over .5mg. .25mg/day might be plenty, I’d probably run .25mg/day and .5mg on Hcg days though the timing is a bit arbitary the total dose would be a bit higher at 2.25mg/week as oppose to 1.75mg/week. If you are running liquid Arimidex I would shoot for .33mg/day simply because of what my numbers read at .25mg/day and 300mg/test - in other words something between .25mg-.5mg/day should be ideal, and you want your estrogen to remain within normal physiological ranges without raising too high (which they will without an AI - on anyone) and too low if you take too much, luckily Arimidex is somewhat self-limiting, though I hate saying that as it’s a bit too conclusive, it is for the most part true with sensable dosing.

Also run the AI 2 weeks past your last shot and then start the Nolvadex if you stay conventional. If you switch to a taper then simply taper off the AI over 3 weeks and your done. The Nolvadex dose looks good IMO as higher doses only protect against estrogen rather than offer more testosterone stimulation according to documented studies.

By the way, I don�??t think you are a idiot at all. I commend your research into your cycle and appreciate that you are looking at several routes and ideas �?? that is not par for the course as most simply copy others and call it research. Well done and keep it up.

(I know I can get to rambling, hope the post made sense)[/quote]

great reply, thanks very much.

i was only going to run the adex because i read somewhere that you need it with HCG, and he recommended that dose!

Ok- i’m going to run a test prop only cycle. 150mg/EOD. for 8 weeks!
1/ would you recommend against HCG for this cycle?
2/ Nolva 10mg/ED is it as good as the 40/40/20/20 dose?

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Im a pretty big fan of a just test first cycle, but dbol would be the only gear I might add.

If its your first cycle your going to be inexperienced, you want to keep it simple, your going to gain like a god no matter what with just test.

The less stuff you have that can you can mess up or account for sideeffects with the better it will be.[/quote]

Thanks for reply.
Yes i think i was getting carried away, trying to get the best 1st cycle possible!! and test only prob is the best cycle i could choose!

ok here’s the plan:
W1-8 Test Prop 150mg/EOD
W2-8 HCG 250iu/E3D
W9 Nolva 40mg/day (5 days after last inject)
W10-12 Nolva 20mg/day

Questions:

  1. Do i ‘‘need’’ adex W1-9 0.2mg/day

  2. Can i inject HCG the same time as prop at a lower dose?

  3. My original Q, what ar your thoughts about the above article/link?

[quote]G.I. Joe Galway wrote:
ok here’s the plan:
W1-8 Test Prop 150mg/EOD
W2-8 HCG 250iu/E3D
W9 Nolva 40mg/day (5 days after last inject)
W10-12 Nolva 20mg/day

Questions:

  1. Do i ‘‘need’’ adex W1-9 0.2mg/day

  2. Can i inject HCG the same time as prop at a lower dose?

  3. My original Q, what ar your thoughts about the above article/link?[/quote]

Looks good.

Why use the Hcg on an e3d (uneven days) schedule when your prop is on eod (even days) schedule. If you’re going to shoot the Prop EOD then shoot the Hcg E4D or even EOD as well and alternate between shots. Something like this:
day 1 Prop 150mg
day 2
day 3 Prop 150mg
day 4 Hcg 250iu

You will need Arimdex (or another AI, though Arimidex would be my choice) to control estrogen and keep it from reaching supraphysiological levels, not saying you will need it to avoid gyno necassarily, but you do want to control estrogen and avoid the old-school foolish idea of letting estrogen raise to supraphysiological levels in the hopes of extra gains (which are quickly lost as they are watery anyway.) On the same note you do not want to sacrifice gains and health by lowering estrogen too much. .25mg-.5mg/day should be good, leaning towards the .25mg/day from day 1.

You can inject the HCG at the same time as the Prop and even in the same syringe (hope this doesn’t start a arguement), but I have grown from that and do not like combining anymore as it makes the inject “uneven” For simplisticy’s sake you can inject on the same day, but I prefer to alternate the days

I really respect the guy and his article if I did not mention that already.