T Nation

HCG, 3000 IU Three Times Per Week


#21

[quote]Ned wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:
3000iu’s? Im still very new to this so excuse me, but isn’t that a VERY high dose? [/quote]

As we see here, it is considered a high dose. However, if you look at the accompanying drug information pamphlet for APP brand HCG, for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, one of the prescriptions is 4,000 IU three times a week for six to nine months, and then followed by 2,000 IU three times per week for three months.

I’ll have to check my pamphlet with my APP hcg but I swear that dosage was for boys who didn’t go through puberty. (can’t remember the clinical name for it right now)

I will look tonight and see exactly what it says for males on mine. Although I’d think they should be the same.[/quote]

Check it?


#22

[quote]Igs wrote:
Having a trusting relationship with your doctor, as great as it is, doesn’t change the fact that the dose will be too high. My initial GP was a great man, but wanted to put me on a once a month Test Cyp shot (stupid). Ignorance doesn’t discriminate.[/quote]

You’re right; being a likable guy has nothing to do with competence. Actually, I work in the same skilled nursing facility and one of my co-workers is a doctor who failed to diagnose my hypogonadism thirteen years ago! Nice guy alright. When I bumped into him thirteen years after his mishap by starting this job seven months ago, I thought to myself, “This is the jackass who failed to recognize a real medical condition I have to this day!”


#23

[quote]AlwaysUp wrote:
Do what you gotta do Brick. Sounds like you have a doctor who’s truly looking out for your best interest. If your labs come back all screwed up or you start feeling like shit, He sounds flexible and smart enough to make a change.

I hope that this works out for you.[/quote]

Thanks.


#24

[quote]Igs wrote:

If you value an opinion of a seasoned doctor, as you put it, why are you linking sources from a pro bodybuilder? [/quote]

Rich Piana never went pro. :slight_smile: And I certainly don’t take his statements here more seriously than my doctor but his personal experience and subjective feelings on the matter shows something, I believe, just like our stories here. I like him a lot, but he has said some asinine things before, including some statements in this video.

None of us are doctors either.

[/quote]
You are not researching objectively. You are looking for sources to support your already cemented point of view. Want something highly controlled and objective on HCG dosing? Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15713727
[/quote]

Thanks for the link. I have read quite a bit, literature that states the dosage I take, and literature that states smaller dosage.

[quote]
With all that said, I am not saying do not go with 3000iu/week. HCG is known to be a weak FSH analog. If 3000iu is needed to conceive then fuck it, do it for few months and try to deal with high E2 as best as you can. Once pregnant, staying on 3000iu in the long run would be silly.

Goodluck.[/quote]

I am going to ask him if after I become fertile, even before we try for a kid, if I can go back to T cyp 100 mg per week and an HCG dose that will only MAINTAIN fertility, because I absolutely LOVE T cyp. As I’ve said before, even when my T levels were similar when on gels, I feel better with cyp.

Thanks for the input.


#25

Just checking in. One full week down. First shot of week was yesterday. I feel the same as on cyp, just normal. I have noticed a bit of testicular growth, which is I believe is a good thing considering “they” were HALF the size of normal for over a decade! (Don’t like to share gory details usually but I know this is a concern amongst many on TRT.)


#26

I rarely get in anyone’s face here.

But I think that “BrickHead” describes you well.


#27

[quote]KSman wrote:
I rarely get in anyone’s face here.

But I think that “BrickHead” describes you well.

[/quote]

Huh?! All I am doing is keeping a log here.


#28

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think the idea is that he feels like you’re logging doing something irresponsible on here that, even if it works for you by some weird set of circumstances, may lead others to act similarly. In that sense, failure for you will lead to a thread with a lot of bad things happening, and success for you only offers a misleading outlier that could lead others to trouble.

Not that I’m not interested to see how things do go. Personally, I hope you keep the log up, as I’m someone who may be going the HcG route down the road.


#29

BrickHead - There’s absolutely nothing wrong with posting your progress. Would people be giving you crap if you were on other drugs to help you produce sperm, even though there can be serious side effects? I don’t think so. You’ve stated why you’re doing it, and that your preference is to lower your HCG dose and go back to Test Cypionate when possible. Your doctor has a reason for dosing that way, and as you said earlier in the thread the official dosing guidance can be even higher than that for some men.

I wish you well in your endeavor, and would like you to post whatever the outcomes are for you. I’d be especially interested in you posting periodic labs, and showing how you and the doctor deal with any expected (or unexpected) side effects. I have no interest in HCG monotherapy for having kids but some guys do, so your experiences (good and/or bad) might help them make a more informed decision down the road.


#30

Hey man. Just wanted to say good luck.

We are all on different regimens for different reasons, and I respect that.

I have been on 1500 IU HCG 3x /week because I want to hold out the chance of maintaining fertility for another couple of years (I’m 40). I’m aware of the other options (Including the Test + 500 IU HCG +AI combo), but I’ve seen some decent literature that shows that HCG Monotherapy can help produce decent (but not great, admittedly) test levels endogenously http://meeting.neaua.org/abstracts/2014/17.cgi

I do understand everyone’s thoughts about estradiol, but I think that regular labs (including the ultrasensitive e2 test) plus an understanding doctor can work well.

It took me going through two doctors before I found one who would do anything about the 250 ng/dl testosterone result I had last fall, so I am keeping this one.

I will definitely check into this log every now and again. I’d like to hear how it works for you, particularly on the spermatogenesis issue.


#31

[quote]Friedman wrote:
BrickHead - There’s absolutely nothing wrong with posting your progress. Would people be giving you crap if you were on other drugs to help you produce sperm, even though there can be serious side effects? I don’t think so. [/quote]

Thanks. I am unsure why some here would imply I am acting irresponsibly. As I’ve said earlier, my doctor has taken care of me, my brother, and friends for thirteen years, was the chairman of urology for a good hospital here, holds academic positions, publishes research, does surgeries, and has a collage of families and babies on his wall. I think he knows a thing or two about fertility and TRT. And, as said before, it’s not like he prescribes and ends there. Hence the quarterly visits and lab values.

As I said earlier, it’s been a week and a half (fifth shot tonight) and I feel fine. Actually for the past few days, libido has been quite high. Perhaps it’s too soon, but I don’t feel any typical effects I’ve read reported. No inflammation in the chest, no moodiness, no acne, no erectile dysfunction. But is still very soon.

I don’t mind reading and sharing information, but I am not the type of guy who likes to self medicate or fix problems I don’t have. For example, some men report swings in well being, even on 100 mg T cyp shots per week and opt to use 50 mg twice per week. Well, I feel fine on 100 mg once per week, and tested in the 700’s five or six days after a shot. So why fix something?

[quote]

You’ve stated why you’re doing it, and that your preference is to lower your HCG dose and go back to Test Cypionate when possible. Your doctor has a reason for dosing that way, and as you said earlier in the thread the official dosing guidance can be even higher than that for some men. [/quote]

Yup.

Dr. Michael Scally said there have been studies on 10,000 IU per week with no Leydig shutdown and that there has not been ONE published case study showing shutdown.

I will post results as I get them.

Thanks!


#32

[quote]someG wrote:
Hey man. Just wanted to say good luck.

We are all on different regimens for different reasons, and I respect that.

I have been on 1500 IU HCG 3x /week because I want to hold out the chance of maintaining fertility for another couple of years (I’m 40). I’m aware of the other options (Including the Test + 500 IU HCG +AI combo), but I’ve seen some decent literature that shows that HCG Monotherapy can help produce decent (but not great, admittedly) test levels endogenously http://meeting.neaua.org/abstracts/2014/17.cgi

I do understand everyone’s thoughts about estradiol, but I think that regular labs (including the ultrasensitive e2 test) plus an understanding doctor can work well.

It took me going through two doctors before I found one who would do anything about the 250 ng/dl testosterone result I had last fall, so I am keeping this one.

I will definitely check into this log every now and again. I’d like to hear how it works for you, particularly on the spermatogenesis issue.[/quote]

Thanks.

I myself went through two doctors, one being an ENDOCRINOLOGIST, before I found my doctor, a uro-andrologist. Both yo-yo doctors thought I was fine with T levels of 240 to 300 ng/dl. The moronic endocrinologist actually gave me a shot of testosterone depot in his office to “jumpstart the system” and then scheduled me to see him in a few months.

I’ve heard of guys getting good T values with monotherapy, mid to high normal. One poster stated he had a T value of 1000+ with 500 IU three times per week. Another poster said he stayed on 10,000 IU for a year and felt fine. Yet another stated he was fine on 3000 IU EOD, which would be 9,000 or 12,000 IU every other week.

I never needed an AI while on gels or T cyp.


#33

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Not to put words in his mouth, but I think the idea is that he feels like you’re logging doing something irresponsible on here that, even if it works for you by some weird set of circumstances, may lead others to act similarly. In that sense, failure for you will lead to a thread with a lot of bad things happening, and success for you only offers a misleading outlier that could lead others to trouble.[/quote]

I see the points. If it fails to work as intended, then it will be stated here. However, I don’t think bad things would be happening unduly considering if they do happen, I will be in the doctors office accordingly or calling him up. He says to call him with any concerns and questions and he or one of his nurses never fail to call back within one to two business days.

I know I seem like a broken record now, but I do not think I am being irresponsible simply because I am putting other mens’ experiences with high estradiol or failure to achieve normal T values or fertility with HCG aside, though NOT dismissing them. Like a broken record, excuse me: going for quarterly and as needed visits IS responsible as a patient and doctor. Making adjustments based upon lab values and well being IS responsible on the doc’s part. Taking a medication as directed as per prescription and accompanying drug info is responsible I believe.

Yes, there are doctors out there who dumb shit like prescribe 200 to 300 mg T cyp once every two to three weeks, but these obviously are not doctors who have paid attention to what’s going on, and I’ve seen in many of those cases they are PCP’s or burnt-out, old endocrinologists who don’t have a clue about TRT. Hence I don’t go to them for this.

[quote]

Not that I’m not interested to see how things do go. Personally, I hope you keep the log up, as I’m someone who may be going the HcG route down the road.[/quote]

Thanks.


#34

Checking in. Two weeks and six shot so far.

I feel fine. I have not experienced one negative effect so far. Libido is outrageous on this stuff so far! I mean I feel like I am seventeen all over again in that department!


#35

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Checking in. Two weeks and six shot so far.

I feel fine. I have not experienced one negative effect so far. Libido is outrageous on this stuff so far! I mean I feel like I am seventeen all over again in that department![/quote]

That’s awesome man. Glad to hear that it’s going well so far.


#36

What you are doing is unlikely to cause real problem, at least so far as doctors consider real problem (they can be pretty tolerant of side-effects from pharmaceuticals. For many of them, they have to be.)

However, any reasoning that if a prestigious doctor is prescribing a particular way, that way must be correct, wise, best-practice or anything else would be quite wrong. Many here have already reported their personal experiences of quite the contrary.

Doctors as a group, including those who have been elevated among doctors, strongly tend to keep doing the same thing, which tends to be whatever they were taught to imitate back when working 72 hours shifts as residents. And to do what the pharma detailers (sales reps) push on them. It’s how it is.

When I first started writing on anabolic steroids and related drugs in 1998, yup, everyone used 5000 IU at a time. Standard practice. So far as I know no one used less. It’s what doctors did.

HCG was pretty much universally considered a “harsh drug.” Water retention and even gyno were common side effects.

I looked at the issue and decided that what was happening was likely this: HCG has a relatively short half life. Doctors and patients don’t want the patient having to come to the office with high frequency for followup injections. If the goal is to space injections apart by 2 weeks or better yet a month, then how can this be done when the half-life is short? Only by injecting enough to give stratospheric levels, far beyond necessary, but which will give sustained effect due to being such gross excess.

That was a hypothesis. The important point would be, what does use reveal.

Use revealed that far lower doses, such as KSman and others here advise give great results without the adverse side effects so common with the huge dosings. Dose/response studies, including intratesticular testosterone level, have totally backed up these much-reduced levels compared to the past. The literature totally supports the lower doses.

Multiple MD’s who pay attention to what works and to new findings have dropped their dosings to these lower levels. Vials however are still large size and common practice among MD’s still is to inject an entire vial at one time, regardless of the overkill. After all, it’s a proven dose that’s right there in the package insert.

People here are advising you accurately with regard to how dosings work. Your doctor is advising you accurately in the sense of matching the package insert and what they were doing back when he was in residency. If he started residency injecting full vials at a time and since then has generally or always done the same and given little or no trial to lower-but-still-fully effective doses, then he doesn’t have a comparison to make.

With regard to a theory of overdosing HCG (in terms of far exceeding the amount necessary to get full LH receptor response) in the hopes of getting weak-agonist effect at FSH receptors… what a way to accomplish that. Yes, there have been studies of combining FSH, which is available, with HCG for fertility. It would make much more sense if desiring FSH receptor agonist effect to dose FSH appropriately rather than to mega-dose HCG.

However, as mentioned, your path is not medically dangerous. If your estrogen levels don’t go too high, you should do okay.


#37

Bill: Thank for your post. All your points are plausible and valid. However, I do not think my doctor is one of those who is still just doing what he did while in residency for reasons I’ve discussed in this thread and elsewhere. And of course a “prestigious doctor” should not have blind faith from us just because he is considered that by some or many people. That’s not the only reason I go to him. I go to him because he has helped me for over a decade and everyone else I know who goes to him have nothing but good reviews. That is, he has a good track record amongst men to whom I am close. Like I said, before being diagnosed, I had experience with negligent doctors. It was not fun.


#38

UPDATE
I am now two and a half weeks in and I saw my doctor today. He said some of his patients have had success with HCG monotherapy, with some staying on it for years with no ill effects. I spoke to him about excess estradiol and he said he has not had a problem with most of his patients on TRT or HCG or clomid monotherapy. He even has some guys on 5000 IU every other day with no ill effects for quite some time. I got blood drawn, and we will see what happens.

So far I have not experienced a negative effect. Mentally and physically I feel fine. Umm, the nads have returned to the size they were over a decade ago, I think; it’s been some time since I felt and saw them at normal or close to normal size. I wake up every morning with erections. No inflammation in the chest, no acne, no mood swings, no anxiety, no edema or fat gain.


#39

Getting good results is what counts, so here’s hoping for the good results to continue!


#40

Anyone else here experience an extremely high libido with HCG monotherapy?