Found a copy of an article on another forum this was apparently posted by the endocrinology society.
Does anyone have real life experience with such a protocol as below? I may have the option of testing HCG monotherapy so I am trying to decide which is the better way to go.
Not sure if I understand it correctly but are they trying to say that if you inject multiple times per week, those subsequent injections are not effective after the initial dose? So you are better off waiting 7 days before injecting again?
An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.
The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation.
Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results.
A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion.
Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma.
The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response.
I was reading in another forum just this week that smaller amounts…@ 100iu per day of HCG was a better way to go in conjunction with 100ml test given subq 2x per week.
Do you have a link to the study or forum that you are referring to above ?
We need to know how much hCG was injected in the study. IV, IM or SC.
There is a study that showed that 250iu SC EOD restored baseline ITT. But that study that sampled ITT by sticking needles into the testes was not a long term study.
If the study was based on the old-school high dose hCG methods, then the data is useless.
PKNY I posted the link to the source but my reply has been deleted. Since my PM’s don’t work I can’t give you the info you asked.
KSman the amount of HCG used was not written. The guy who posted the article and mentioned 100iu daily, 250iu 3x a week and with1000iu once weekly as being the best option in his opinion.
I found the posting.
I am of the school that believe in using the least amount of a compound first.
Would be more apt to try 100iu per day vs 1000iu once per week.
It would be interesting to know more about this. I’ve googled a bit and found a flurry of forum activity in April and June of 2011 with some interesting discussion (ymmv on that one). The most authoritative source I can find is endotext dot org (link: http://www.endotext.org/male/male1/male1.html) in the Endocrinology of Male Reproduction section, “CONTROL OF TESTICULAR FUNCTION.” The OP’s quoted material is pulled directly from there and references are listed. None are linked, though.
[quote]PKNY wrote:
I found the posting.
I am of the school that believe in using the least amount of a compound first.
Would be more apt to try 100iu per day vs 1000iu once per week.
[/quote]
It would make sense and further to that iy makes sense multiple dosing of smaller quantities.
But if any weight should be given to the article then they seem to think otherwise.
Well I think the only way to test this is to actually try it. If I manage to get scripts for HCG I will probably trial this and compare with 3x weekly shots.
Not sure if I could be bothered with ED dosing.
KSman - if someone is on HCG monotherapy say for a long time and for some reason they stop, how long for the pituitary to pick-up?
Do you run the risk of becoming primary if on HCG long term? Or is this not a problem with sensible dosages?
I read somewhere they are linking HCG to some kind of cancer. I guess no long term studies have been done with HCG so probably no definitive answers.
Reading up on HCG and if intratesticular aromatization is an issue it would seem for us who are secondary we most likely need to follow the same path as primary people.
This kind of sucks since we have functioning boys. But if we can’t control this aromatization what other option do we have? I can’t seem to find much how people do on hcg monotherapy. Found some posts by people who do seem to have this issue with higher e2 along with higher testosterone.
But then again people on shots and HCG on here seem to be able to control their e2.
So maybe with conservative weekly dosages controlling e2 may not be as futile as it is when on clomid?
So to be safe I plan on starting letro 1/4 tab every 2nd day for a week in advance of hcg and then take 1/4 tab every E3D and see what happens. I don’t want to start HCG without an AI.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Most using 250iu/EOD do not have problems with E2 production in the testes. A few, perhaps rare, have a problem and can try smaller doses.
High levels of LH from too high of a dose of a SERM or too much hCG can have the same effects. So never combine the two.[/quote]
That is good to know. Ksman have you read anywhere how long the pituitary takes to pick-up once HCG is withdrawn.
If after a 4 month trial of HCG one was to discontinue, how long can one expect for the pituitary to start firing?
Would you say after a longer sleep state 12+ months the pituitary will take longer to recover?
Just trying to understand the risks with testing HCG monotherapy.
You should switch to 10mg Nolvadex, stopping hCG. Then after 2-3 weeks, tapper slowly off of Nolvadex. Use 0.5mg anastrozole all through this process and cruise on that for a month or so. The SERM will get the hypothalamus and pituitary into the game then you transition.
There is no way to predict time frames or extent of recovery.