T Nation

Hard Decision to Make On Cycle (HGH, Test E, Gyno)


#1

Hi there,

My story so far: I have been doing HGH @ 4-5 iu ed for about 6 weeks (without any other mediactions) in January - February of this year and startet getting slight gyno Symptoms (puffy nipples). Prolactin was at 27 ng/ml. I have then been quitting HGH and restarting it after 3 weeks after starting with Cabergoline @ 0.25mg e5d in order to fight prolactin.

(pre cycle blood: testosterone 22 nmol/l, estrogen 35 pg/ml, prolactin 9 ng / ml, IGF 1 280)

On the 24th February, I have started my Steroid cycle with Test E @ 300mg e6d (equals 350mg weekly) and Arimidex 0.25mg e2d, HGH low dose @ 2iu and Cabergoline 0.25mg e5d in order to get prolactin down.

20 days after the start, I have been doing my first blood test with the following bloods:

total testosterone: over 120 nmol/l
estrogen: 117 pg / ml (<50 reference) (too high for my taste)
DHT: 700 ng / ml (okay)
Prolactin: 5 (good)
IGF1: 180 (average despite 2iu HGH)

-> therefore I have increased dosage of Arimidex to 0.5mg ed -> after 1 week I tested estradio e2 again and it was at 15 pg / ml (too low for my taste) -> so back to 0.5 mg e3d

My doctor was then doing an ultrasonic test (week 3 of cycle) of my 2 nipples and the following result came out:

left: 2 x 2 x 0.4 cm (breast tissue)
right: 2.8 x 2.8 x 0.4 cm (breast tissue)

-> slight case of gynocomastia… I was shocked as I can barely see or feel the gyno that I have… I dunno if it was already there before my cycles…

Now I have a difficult decision to make. I have read that Tamoxifen taken for several months can indeed reverse gyno…(see current studies, but also decreases IGF1 around 25%) .I will actually continue my cycle till mid July 2017 and also increase dosage to around 550 weekly.

  1. Should I start taking Tamoxifen @ 10 - 20 mg daily in order to try to reverse this slight gyno case?
  2. What should I do with the HGH intake? (currently @ 3iu ed)
  3. What should I do regarding the AI intake? (currencly @ 0.5mg e2d)

I do not have Letrozole at home, only Tamoxifen and Anastrozole (Arimidex).

current medication: Test E 300mg e6d, HCG 300iu e4d, Arimidex 0.5mg e2d, HGH 3iu ed, Cabergoline 0.25mg e5d

Thank you for your help. I guess this case is complicated…


#2

Did I really just read your nipple measurements LOOOOL

Start taking nolvadex aswell as adex…

Why are you talking about continuing your cycle and even increasing it when you have the start of gyno is ridiculous… If you are fucking up on 350mg test e per week, then why are you looking at going up to 550 lol/? And until mid July…

wtf - just stop using drugs - seek medical help for the prolactin.


#3

I do not know if the gyno was already present or not… maybe induced through HGH… however I will of course not stop the cycle as it will only make Things worse


#4

"Synthetic HGH is comprised mainly of the 22Kda (kilodalton) isoform. Natural HGH the body produces is comprised of a multitude of different HGH isoforms with different binding affinities. The 22Kda isoform makes up the majority of monomeric HGH the body produces, yet is still a very small total percentage compared to the ratios the pituitary releases.

22Kda GH has an extremely high binding affinity to the extracellular prolactin receptor domain (PRL-R). To a greater extent than 20Kda HGH or other HGH dimers, tetramers, etc.
This means that synthetic 22Kda HGH WILL activate the PRL-R just as prolactin would.
So, it is not an increase in prolactin, but rather the direct HGH affinity for the prolactin receptor that causes the sides attribited to prolactin induced gyno"

This was off another forum…

They recommended Dostinex.

But you clearly seem keen on using more and more drugs and gear with no intention to slow down and resolve any issues before using more gear so… im out.


#5

This is interesting. Thanks.


#6

I don’t quite understand the science behind prolactin etc fully so it would be good for someone to break this down in more simple terms…

I have many friends who use large amounts of GH with no gyno problems and its a first for me to hear about GH related prolactin gyno.

Could be a rarity or maybe everyone should be taking caber/dostinex while using good GH?


#7

As you can read in my first post, I am already taking dostinex (cabergoline) @ 0.25 mg e5d. But thank you anyway, I can also only post some text out of other forums.

I already know all that stuff you Keep posting. That doesn’t help. I Need advice how to continue (add Tamoxifen) and/or if I should stop using HGH right away.


#8

So you already know all of this, but are still asking if you should continue using HGH and gear…

If you are taking drugs to control prolactin and estrogen related gyno, and gyno is still present then you cycle off and then treat just the gyno. Rather than trying to balance everything…

But what you are really after is someone to tell you that everything is ok and to keep on abusing gear and adding in drugs until some sort of result is accomplished.

I have suggested taking nolva and adex right away as both these help combat gyno in both forms…


#9

Well, basically it is not an easy decision for me as I would love to continue using HGH.

Dropping the Test E does not make any sense as it will not help with my gyno (ratio of androgens vs estrogens is important for gyno development)… so if i stop my cycle right away the gyno might flare up even more.

I also do not know if it will continue to grow or if it will now stay the way it is. Adding Tamoxifen will reduce IGF1 around 25 % (due to GHRH decrease)… so three options:

  1. add Tamoxifen 20 mg ed (or 10 mg) + Keep low dose AI + Keep taking low dose hgh
  2. add Tamoxifen 20 mg ed (or 10 mg) + stop using HGH at all + Keep low dose AI
  3. do not do anything, just Keep taking AI @ 0.5mg e2d as estrogen is now pretty low and prolactin also

#10

Surely option 1 then if the problem persists step up to option 2…

If problem persists then your an idiot if you don’t cycle off.

It sounds to me like you are psychologically addicted to steroids…

If you cannot stop using 3iu per day of GH and a little test to sort yourself out then you need to consider what you are doing very hard.


#11

well, i guess you need to figure out if you need to continue your cycle or not… you need to determine if gyno is worth the risk.

with that being said, i think that you can deal with the gyno… both raloxifene (60 mg/day) and tamoxifen (10-20 mg/day) have been shown to be effective in reducing the size of gyno. generally, i suggest ralox while on cycle, because it is slightly more effective than nolva, and nolva is far more useful in PCT.

i think your current arimidex dose is fine, as your E2 is under control.

you could possibly add some DHT cream to your gyno, as that has been shown to be effective on cycle as well.

i think the cause of your gyno growth is related to the HGH… it’s up to you if you wanna try to mitigate the gyno sides or not and keep the HGH.

another couple things to think about is the time of your testosterone and HCG. i strongly suggest spreading out your test injections, as you have a decent peak and valley by injecting every 6 days. the half-life of test e/cyp is 4.5 days, so i typically suggest injecting 2 times a week (e3d). (IMO, a large peak cause more issues with aromatization that most things).

also, HCG increase aromatization (albeit minimally), and i doubt you need to use it e4d on your cycle to keep things going. most guys are fine once a week (and many don’t use it anyway and still recover just fine).

below is a link where we discussed gyno/estrogen a while back:


#12

I am not psychologically addicted to Steroids.

But I will of course not stop this cycle only because of a slight gyno case. I didnt mess up my HPTA just to finish my cycle after 5 weeks… that does not make any sense.

I just Need to change certain Things in order to be safe…

@cycobushmaster: thanks for your text. Well if I will go off it will change nothing to my pre-existing gyno… it might only flare up more. So with an AI and/or Tamoxifen without HGH I will be able to continue the cycle without further problems with growing gyno. Unfortunately I do not have raloxifen on hand to use it.

I will change the injection interval to e3d once i Up the dosage to 450 mg weekly.