T Nation

Happy Marriages/Relationships

@dagill2

didn’t the latest statistic show more than 50% divorce rate now? more people staying single and having less kids?

where do you come off saying allllll these men are in happy married relationships? I think those guys are the exception, the rarity in the population at large and most of them I’d reckon die before the relationship goes south. lol

Also, my issue is that instead of someone coming in and saying “well my relationship is balanced, I have issues with my partner, but overall it is happy”

Its rarely ever like that though. it’s always “my partner is the most banging smartest person ever on earth” yeah uh huh.

Would you marry a woman that you think is an ugly idiot and whom you lack respect for?

No. You wouldn’t.

Then why does it surprise you that other men would think that their wife is incredible?

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Nope.

Between 11 and 17 percent, depending on income.

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It looks like divorce is trending down, but I’m not sure where they got 11-17%.



What’s unclear to me is if the marriage figures are pre or post divorce.

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No, but I wouldn’t pretend she’s the greatest person on earth to a bunch of dudes on a forum, in a thread about some ex being borderline.

Do you guys act like this in real life?

Like what?

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This is like the 205847262th time I’ve genuinely been amazed that you haven’t exploded from sheer hypocrisy (and irony).

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I don’t really have the energy to “debate” this with you. Especially as I’m pretty sure you’ll have nothing but your jaded personal experience to back any claims, and when challenged will start moving the goalposts and piling in with personal insults. I’ve played this game before and no-one won

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Excellent questions, to get back on the original topic if the OP hopes to glean any useful information from this thread.

Going back off topic, and slightly prolonging the train crash that all threads involving a certain member tend to become, I cannot resist at least one more set of comments:

This assertion is based on your personal experiences, I suppose. If you and/or the people you interact with have had negative relationship experiences, then I am not surprised that you feel this way. The problem is that you take this information and generalize it broadly to a belief that nearly all women are broken-down bags of trash; then, when presented with anecdotes to the contrary, you seem unable to process and consider that information because it conflicts with your prior beliefs. You simply cannot believe that there are happily married men out there with wives who are intelligent, confident, high-achieving, and not “mentally and emotionally defective” creatures, for two reasons - one, it runs counter to your own personal experience, and two, it would require admitting that perhaps there is some culpability on your part.

To explain that “culpability” problem further, I do not mean that you have dated/encountered a string of perfect women. There are plenty of screwed-up women out there just like there are plenty of screwed-up men out there (if you want to see one, check the mirror). There’s likely some selection bias in the women you have dated for long enough for long enough to draw conclusions. From what I can tell based on your posts in the T-Nation forums, there is a pretty minimal chance that a high-achieving and confident woman would waste more than one date on you (and if you did happen to stumble your way into a second or third date withone & she kicked you to the curb after that, everything that I’ve seen on these forums suggest that you’d consider it a problem with her rather than you). I suspect that every woman you’ve dated who has ended the relationship of their own accord has left you thinking something to the effect of “they’re an emotional fucking cunt” and never once considering the possibility that she left because you were not what she was interested in. If that’s your attitude, it’s no wonder you think all women are “mentally and emotionally defective” because the alternative is admitting that maybe she’s just not that into you.

That’s not what I actually said; it’s just that you’re incapable of reading anything in less than black and white terms. I stated several positive attributes that my wife has, which add up to a relationship that is very easy for the two of us because we are both happy with what the other offers.

And if you have issues with people speaking in absolute terms about positive relationship experiences, I think you should ask yourself why you are more tolerant to posts that make broad generalizations as “all women are mentally and emotionally defective” than you are of posts that characterize relationships in a positive light.

Do I speak positively about my wife in real life? Yes. I’m proud of the things that she has and continues to accomplish, and proud to be married to her, as she is proud to be married to me.

Again, your frustration and inability to attract a woman that makes you sufficiently happy colors your judgement here - you simply cannot believe that this exists, because doing so would both conflict with your own experience and make you question (admit) that perhaps you are part of the problem.

If I showed your post history to 100 randomly chosen women, how many do you think would swipe right, so to speak? Here are some examples just from skimming your post history in the last month or so:

Protip: talking about women like they’re some other species is a surefire tell to any reasonably well-functioning woman that they need not spend another moment in your presence.

As a statistician, I’ll just say that pinning down a figure like a “divorce rate” (as a percentage of the number of marriages) is pretty tough because of the dynamics of time. What’s the proper denominator? The number of divorces that occurred in the last year divided by…what? The number of marriages that occur in the years those people got married? As you posted, figures like an annual “rate per population” are much easier to calculate & by comparing the marriage numbers against the divorce numbers you can at least get a general sense of whether the ratio of the two is increasing or not.

I work on a lot of time-to-event analyses in medicine, you could apply those techniques if you had a dataset with had a start date and “end date” (along with an indicator of whether the marriage ended in divorce or some other reason) to get an estimate of the % of marriages that ended in divorce at specific points of interest (1 year, 5 years, 10 years, etc). But that requires a lot more work than just chucking a stat out there like “50 percent of all marriages end in divorce”

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Ya, it’s definitely a weird concept we like to quote / cling to for some reason.

I will openly admit my viewpoint could be jaded. Whenever I see a ‘happy’ marriage I am truly amazed, and proud of those people. Yet, any time I have seen it, it never lasted that long.

Are we not going to admit that for the most part marriages are incredibly difficult to manage? Let’s be honest here, shall we. If you are making a marriage work in 2020, I’m proud of you. You should be fucking applauded.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, I just find it rare. Is that wrong of me? And I also believe that women are completely different than men… almost a different species, yes.

I also don’t think a guy that has made a marriage work is somehow a better man, or a more capable person. I only find those men to be more submissive. Submissiveness has been the number 1 attribute of a good marriage, in my eyes, any time I have seen one that works. In the West the man must submit to the woman in order for the marriage to stay functional.

When people on this board make fun of me or call me crazy because I talk about the power women wield in todays society I shrug, because it flies in the face of all the empirical evidence I have at my disposal.

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image

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Continuing the discussion of how to have happy, healthy long-term relationships… because why wouldn’t that be a topic open to rational online conversation.

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You know, I was actually with you for the first couple of sentences, because although I do not fully agree, it was pretty much the most mature and reasonable thing I’ve seen you write on this site.

…which is your personal experience, and not “empirical evidence” at all. And that’s fine - we all have to reply on our personal experience at times. It’s hard to get good empirical data to answer a lot of questions. We have to make decisions every day that are not informed by data.

I simply suggest that when someone else outside your circle - say, on an internet forum - posts that they have had a different experience, you consider that maybe the world is wider than your personal experience.

My marriage is relatively young (three years), but both sets of my grandparents were married for 60+ years (my paternal grandparents are both still living, and married); my own parents are 30+ years in; my wife’s parents are 30+ years in; so I’ve been directly exposed to plenty of “happy” marriages that have lasted plenty long.

At the same time, I recognize that this is not fully representative of the world; several of my closest friends in high school were raised by parents that either had some form of marital troubles, and in several cases, ended in divorce. Three of my very close high-school football teammates had divorced parents; my wife’s childhood best friend was married and divorced within a year and is currently a single mother.

The difference between you and me seems to be that I can appreciate a variety of experiences and acknowledge that both men and women exist along a spectrum, while you are prone to bold generalizations that all women are mentally and emotionally defective creatures without applying that same critical lens to men. Your working assumption in several threads on this very site is that women are responsible for the majority of, if not all, relationship troubles. Then, you say shit like this:

…and you go right back into the abyss.

First, if “submissiveness” works for some people, it’s not for me to judge - people should do whatever works for them in a relationship.

Second, it’s total clownishness for you to think a man has to be “submissive” to a woman for a long-term relationship to work. There’s a difference between being “submissive” and “viewing your spouse as an equal partner in your relationship.”

You know why people on these forums toss the word incel at you repeatedly? Because this is the way incels talk, dude! Any husband that does something because his wife asks is a beta cuck that’s just not ALPHA enough to control his woman. GTFO, dude.

“The man must submit to the woman in order for the marriage to stay functional” - why, because I cut the lawn and take the garbage out while she cleans the bathroom floors and scrubs the shower? We’re equal partners. We share in the responsibilities of maintaining a household, generally playing to our respective strengths. The fact that you view any compromise or concession from the male to the female as being “submissive” speaks volumes about how you view men in comparison to women, and answers the question about why people on this forum use the term incel in conversation with you. If, in your world, you think a male doing 30 percent of the household chores (leaving the wife to do the remaining 70 percent) is “submissive” for doing so, there’s your problem, mate.

This is ridiculous and not grounded in reality. The vast majority of upper level management positions, full professorships, etc are still held by men. The fact that women are creeping ever so slowly closer to equality doesn’t mean that men wield less power in today’s society than women.

That’s not to say every hardline feminist cause is appropriate or just; some are clearly silly and/or exaggerated, and everyone (male and female alike) should strive to separate real injustice from fake injustice. But it’s a reaction to millennia of women being treated as less than equals. It shouldn’t really be that surprising.

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You need new friends

Thank you

I find it odd that you feel a species as diverse as humans can be split evenly into only 2 types of people.

Better at and more capable of forming meaningful relationships though surely? They may not be “better” overall because being a “better man” is a pretty meaningless descriptor without context, but it’s hard to argue they aren’t better at forming meaningful relationships.

False. Submission is not a functional marriage.

It flies in the face of your interpretation of the evidence you have. Not the same thing.

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This is a good point. Interestingly, greenboy says that we should be applauded for making a marriage work in these times, yet the most common reaction from greenboy when someone posts their experience in a successful marriage is…well, it’s usually not applause.

Greenboy, maybe save an APPLAUSE gif somewhere handy so you can applaud each time someone responds to let you know that they are in a happy marriage.

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“could be” … hahahahaha - even when you’re admitting something you have to use ambiguous language. I’d say you have commitment issues hahaha

This is what AG was talking about man. Broad generalizations…

Although, I tend to believe you in this case … miserable cunts tend to keep like company…

Compared to what? Difficulty is not a precise measurement. I’ll bite though, I will say there are difficulties within most marriages, but that doesn’t, per se, mean managing marriages are overall that difficult given there’s mutual respect and mature open dialogue. I’d reckon you’ve never had a relationship like that as you appear to lack the self-respect necessary to accomplish either of those pre-requisites. Of course, that opinion is strictly based on your post history and our previous interactions…

Gracias.

objectively speaking, based on the numbers provided already, the rarity of this occurrence is decreasing and it’s apparently becoming more common. It’s probably wouldn’t be considered rare when you control for other variables like income and education level…so, rare in some cases, not so much in others. Broad strokes…

And there’s the other half of that mutual respect thing. You don’t exhibit self-respect and a egregious lack of respect for the other half of that equation. AND you lack the humility to, in no uncertain terms, say you are your own problem…amazing

we’ve noticed

You should stop before you confuse yourself further…

Thanks Dr Spock. I’m sure you’ll win the Nobel for the scientific exercise and contribution to Humanity.

oh honey…don’t make more of a fool out of yourself

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He’s just doing his thing. He’s slowly backing off of his talking points, switching up what he’s said, twisting words, etc. and a few hundred posts from now, when it’s all lost in the sauce, he can deny ever having said any of it.

And he’ll believe it.

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Never, in the decade+ I’ve been married, have I thought about how to “manage” it. We’re not business partners. Our relationship isn’t transactional in nature and I bet a significant cause of divorce everywhere is treating your relationship this way. Compromise, mutual respect, gasp giving in at time, these are all parts of healthy relationships and, guess what, sometimes they’re difficult. Lots of things in life are hard and still well worth it.

This conversation will go no where. Good luck to you guys…

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As gigantic fucking mistakes go This goes right up there with seeing people as a problem that need solved or figured out (how to manipulate).

Marriage is not a situation that needs managed. Situations that need managed are resolved. Of course a lot of marriages end up resolved too.