The Mage wrote:
This is common over there. Propaganda and brainwashing is standard fare, and yes this is something to fear.
You know this is common because… how?
For all you know, this could be as common as the Jesus Camp brainwashings in the bible belt of the US.
Have you spent years living there? Talked to the people? Watched a lot of there TV?
If so, I apologize. If not, shut the hell up.
Yes, reasearch from people like Benny Morris, Lewis, Juergensmeyer etc is NOT important, the only important and credible source of information is yourself, you should preferably be a leftist (a radical leftist), wear a shemag and think that USA and Israel are imperialist bastards. That is the zen and only way to the truth.
Show me this research please? The research, if it is valid (and I have heard of or read things by both Benny Morris and others like him) still doesn’t point to this being common all over the Arabic world.
I don’t really think Israel is imperialist. At all. I think Israel is defending itself in a hostile environment, and using the US as its back up to prevent it’s ultimate destruction. I think some people seriously play down the Israelites level of ruthlessness (which I think can be justified sometimes, but not all the time).
I think the US has not been as Imperialist as the classical imperial powers of the past, but we are certainly messing around in a place where we shouldn’t be.
I do not lean that far to the left. I am not a communist. I think communism is stupid and idealistic. I just happen to think the same of a purely capitalist society. If anything, even ‘leftists’ of American politics lean far to the right of most of Europe. I like it that way too.
It seemed however, that he was making an assumption based not on copious research collected by another, but on a single internet article.
So you come here, make assumptions about me (an Ad Hominem argument), you appeal to the authority of another before unmentioned source (another fallacy), and try to discredit me, while I did nothing but point out that we do not know how common propaganda like this is.
I admit, my argument was not the best (I didn’t mean he actually had to LIVE there of course, and I should have included research of someone who HAD lived there).
But yours is just ridiculous.
Yes, pointing out that “you have to live there to have an opinion” is a ridiculous argument, how could I DO THAT?!
A quick and interesting list of books you could dive into:
What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East - Bernard Lewis
History of the Arab Peoples - Hourani
Another interesting piece of statistics is that you’ll find in “the end of faith” by sam harris, where you can see that 82% of muslims in Libanon, over 70% in the ivory coast think that suicide bombs directed at civilians can be a justified way of defending Islam (note, not some national home, statehood… but ISLAM!?). And the list continues (and the most extreme countries are not on the list, plus, this is in 2002, things haeven’t become any better) for quite some bit.
The fact is that Islam is a problem in the world today. Religion generally is a problem, but Islam particularly so right now.
(And yes, pointing out the fact that there is research on areas is a bad, bad case of appeal to authority, how could I NOT see that…)[/quote]
Saying “so-and-so says Muslims are bad, and he’s an expert” is by no means an argument.
The Sam Harris statistic, however, is valid evidence for an argument, if that’s what we were argueing about. This is called a straw-man.
We are not talking about whether or not Muslims think bombings are justified. We are not even argueing over the views or beliefes of Muslims in anyway. We are arguing over whether or not you can honestly say that most of the Muslim world is filled with propaganda just like this, and that it is a problem.
The burden of proof is on you. Recommending books is a start. Actually quoting said books would be better. Finding evidence of widespread propaganda in a majority of Muslim nations would be best.
I’m not even disputing the fact that propaganda exists and is bad. I’m disputing your claim that you KNOW that a majority of Muslims are exposed to this kind of thing continuously.