Hagel Says Iraq's Like Vietnam

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

Okay, the wheels might be starting to fall off the wagon if Republican senators are starting to make these types of statements…

Sen. Hagel Says Iraq Looking Like Vietnam
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050822/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq

–

WASHINGTON - A leading Republican senator and prospective presidential candidate said Sunday that the war in
Iraq has destabilized the Middle East and is looking more like the Vietnam conflict from a generation ago.

Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel, who received two Purple Hearts and other military honors for his service in Vietnam, reiterated his position that the United States needs to develop a strategy to leave Iraq. Hagel scoffed at the idea that U.S. troops could be in Iraq four years from now at levels above 100,000, a contingency for which the
Pentagon is preparing.

“We should start figuring out how we get out of there,” Hagel said on “This Week” on ABC. “But with this understanding, we cannot leave a vacuum that further destabilizes the Middle East. I think our involvement there has destabilized the Middle East. And the longer we stay there, I think the further destabilization will occur.”

Hagel said “stay the course” is not a policy. “By any standard, when you analyze 2 1/2 years in Iraq … we’re not winning,” he said.

[see link for full article]

2

Wait Vroom, lets guess what our resident right wing Taliban will say…

  1. A conservative with an ax to grind for some reason against the master and commander and company.

or number two…

  1. A disgruntled conservative with an ax to grind for some reason against the master and commander and company.

and number three…

  1. A conservative who wants to run for President with an ax to grind for some reason against the master and commander and company.

When people in your own ranks start speaking their mind and the truth it is telling. The hardcore obssessed hawks will attempt to discredit. It’s their formula.

3

You have to take Hagel’s label as a republican with a grain of salt. I think he just chose that label because it typically plays better here in Nebraska.

Right now he’s positioning himself for a presidential bid. He is taking a “centrist” position similar to Ms. Clinton. Coming from a “republican” it adds credibility to his statement.

Whether one agrees or diagrees with his statement(s), this move was well played.

4

like Zell Miller?

5

Hagel has started his 2008 presidential campaign.

This is not the only right wind defection.

As the realization that Iraq will be a Shia theocracy (dictatorship) control remotely from Iran sinks in you will see right wing defections by the boat load.

Yeah, it sure is worth our kids deaths to install a Iran controlled theocracy.

Israel will be less safe then when Saddam was in power and the middle east will move farther away from a democracy.

6

[quote]vroom wrote:
Okay, the wheels might be starting to fall off the wagon if Republican senators are starting to make these types of statements…

Sen. Hagel Says Iraq Looking Like Vietnam
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050822/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq
[/quote]

Don’t be naive, guys: Republicans may not have many human qualities, but they’ve become brillian political strategists over the years.

Republicans will always tell people what they want to hear… they know the American people have turned away from supporting Iraq, and since Bush can’t run for re-election anyway, cannibalizing is definitely the smart strategy here, since it avoids that people in the middle swing to the left because of the war; it lets them have the cake and eat it too…

7

Wasnt this guy some Vietnam “war hero”? I think that if we look hard enough we should be able to pretty easily Swift Boat this guy’s patriotism and honor just like Kerry.

8

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Wasnt this guy some Vietnam “war hero”? I think that if we look hard enough we should be able to pretty easily Swift Boat this guy’s patriotism and honor just like Kerry.[/quote]

Wow. Great way to counter an argument. You don’t like what someone says, well let’s just go and defame his character. He’s an old fart, he must’ve done something reprehensible in the past, right?

It doesn’t matter whether he’s right or wrong. Sling enough mud and the “sheeple” won’t even think about the real problem; they’ll just argue about something he did 30 years ago that has no relevancy whatsoever to the situation on hand.

The saddest part is that this tactic works so well.

9

[quote]croak wrote:
Right now he’s positioning himself for a presidential bid. He is taking a “centrist” position similar to Ms. Clinton. Coming from a “republican” it adds credibility to his statement.[/quote]

Why is it that there seems to be only two options: “Stay the course” and “Pull out early”?

How about “Stay the course but rectify the errors”? Get more troops there. Try to get other nations involved, even if it means giving up a bit of command and control and/or giving contracts to foreign companies? Right now the so-called “Coalition” is slowly shrinking. It should be growing. You had nearly half the globe with you in 1991, and a lot more cooperation in Afghanistan.

It’s probably not doable by your current administration, their short-sightedness and arrogance being what it is (especially since the only sensible one, Colin Powell, is gone). But for the next election, it seems to me that the best candidate would be one that would pledge to finish the Iraq war correctly. You don’t want a theocracy there, you want a secular democracy.

Pulling out in conditions similar as those we’ve got today would leave the place worse off than when you went in and you’d look like fuckin’ idiots to the rest of the world.

“Staying the course” appears to only prolong the status quo for years and years, notwithstanding the claims of victories, mission accomplished and insurgents being in theirs last throes… You can’t afford that, morally and economically.

So where’s the candidate who cares enough about America to set aside the dumb political games and wants to try and finish this thing right?

When you’re deep in shit, you can stand around in it and try to lob it at one another; I wanna know who’s the guy with the shovel?

10

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Wait Vroom, lets guess what our resident right wing Taliban will say…[/quote]

Good to see “Elk the moderate Democrat” weighing in.

As a card-carrying member of the right wing Taliban here on the website, I have to say that I really think Hagel’s comments not much of a big deal - I actually expected a Republican to come out sooner with some criticism of the war in Iraq. To be frank, there is plenty of legitimate criticism to be offered at this stage - and the Democrats don’t seem up to the challenge as a unified party to offer any constructive criticism not rooted in left-wing hysteria and conspiracy. So given that there are elections to be thinking about, certain individuals will start speaking up more.

I am not suggesting that his motives are entirely for political election purposes only - he is certainly entitled to honestly believe that Iraq is another Vietnam - I just think that election considerations make ambitious figures speak their minds a little louder than they otherwise might, say before Election 2004.

As for him being a ‘leading’ Republican? Well, that plays well in the media, but he really isn’t a ‘leading’ member of the party.

Oh, and if you are a ‘moderate’ Democrat - then my ass is a banjo.

11

What tunes do you play on your banjo? Mr Bojangles…

Call me what you want hippie, ultra liberal, communist, my feelings are the same. I know you as well thunder and your strategy “let me play this cool and feign total control” “I will calmly and snidely dismantle this new threat to my beliefs with my superior intellect and wit”.

We are all pretty predictable aren’t we?

12

[quote]pookie wrote:
croak wrote:
Right now he’s positioning himself for a presidential bid. He is taking a “centrist” position similar to Ms. Clinton. Coming from a “republican” it adds credibility to his statement.

Why is it that there seems to be only two options: “Stay the course” and “Pull out early”?

How about “Stay the course but rectify the errors”? Get more troops there. Try to get other nations involved, even if it means giving up a bit of command and control and/or giving contracts to foreign companies? Right now the so-called “Coalition” is slowly shrinking. It should be growing. You had nearly half the globe with you in 1991, and a lot more cooperation in Afghanistan.

It’s probably not doable by your current administration, their short-sightedness and arrogance being what it is (especially since the only sensible one, Colin Powell, is gone). But for the next election, it seems to me that the best candidate would be one that would pledge to finish the Iraq war correctly. You don’t want a theocracy there, you want a secular democracy.

Pulling out in conditions similar as those we’ve got today would leave the place worse off than when you went in and you’d look like fuckin’ idiots to the rest of the world.

“Staying the course” appears to only prolong the status quo for years and years, notwithstanding the claims of victories, mission accomplished and insurgents being in theirs last throes… You can’t afford that, morally and economically.

So where’s the candidate who cares enough about America to set aside the dumb political games and wants to try and finish this thing right?

When you’re deep in shit, you can stand around in it and try to lob it at one another; I wanna know who’s the guy with the shovel?
[/quote]

Seriously? I never said which way I leaned on this particular issue or commented on the current state of the war. All I commented on was the statement(s) (he’s said similar things before I just don’t think they got as much national coverage) he recently made. Many people I know in the state that elected Sen. Hagel (where I live and voted for the Senator) kind of chuckle at him being a republican.

That does not mean that the Senator is right or wrong with his statement, but the reaction that a republican senator is disenting is kind of iffy in this case. That was the only point I was trying to make.

13

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Wasnt this guy some Vietnam “war hero”? I think that if we look hard enough we should be able to pretty easily Swift Boat this guy’s patriotism and honor just like Kerry.[/quote]

Christ someone still believes the swift boat gang? George W Bush himself stated the Senator Kerrys record of service to his country was honorable. Not that he said this lound and clear and repeatedly but he did admit it. Kerry’s military record was just released and as expected no big surprises.

Chuck and Tom Hagel served together in the same unit in Vietnam. Neither is sure just how the two brothers ended up in the same unit but they did. Chuck and His brother both recieved purple hearts and bronze or silver stars. Check www.AWOLBUSH.com for the records.

His record of serviceis impecabble, unlike that of our our President.

By the way whats your record of service to the USA?

14

[quote]pookie wrote:
Floortom wrote:
Wasnt this guy some Vietnam “war hero”? I think that if we look hard enough we should be able to pretty easily Swift Boat this guy’s patriotism and honor just like Kerry.

Wow. Great way to counter an argument. You don’t like what someone says, well let’s just go and defame his character. He’s an old fart, he must’ve done something reprehensible in the past, right?

It doesn’t matter whether he’s right or wrong. Sling enough mud and the “sheeple” won’t even think about the real problem; they’ll just argue about something he did 30 years ago that has no relevancy whatsoever to the situation on hand.

The saddest part is that this tactic works so well.
[/quote]

Pookie well said brother I couldnt agree more.

There is actually a name for this sort of faulty argumentation, for those that dont know its called the Ad Hominem arguent, latin for “argument from the man”

I guess I will explain it cause at least one person on this thread doesnt understand it. It means that what a person says can be true even if they are awful people.

The facts as Pookie said need to be verified. For example simply pointing out that Einstien was a wife beating alcholic (for example) in no way discredits the theory of relativity, any more then if you find out he was a great guy that it makes his theory valid.

Thats the short version anyhow. So I think the record will show that Hagel has an impeccable record. Regardless what he says may still be accurate.

15

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Wasnt this guy some Vietnam “war hero”? I think that if we look hard enough we should be able to pretty easily Swift Boat this guy’s patriotism and honor just like Kerry.[/quote]

Seems like Elkhunter hit the nail right on the head! God forbid someone critcize Bush that means they have an axe to grind with him. Funny thing is is in those who idolize Bush they actually believe he has done everything PERFECTLY regarding this war! No WMD’s found, no direct link between Iraq and the 9/11 attacks found and no exit strategy for our troops, yep this president and his admin has done everything PERFECTLY! Don’t believe me? Just ask any Bush supporter!

16

[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
Floortom wrote:
Wasnt this guy some Vietnam “war hero”? I think that if we look hard enough we should be able to pretty easily Swift Boat this guy’s patriotism and honor just like Kerry.

Christ someone still believes the swift boat gang? George W Bush himself stated the Senator Kerrys record of service to his country was honorable. Not that he said this lound and clear and repeatedly but he did admit it. Kerry’s military record was just released and as expected no big surprises.

Chuck and Tom Hagel served together in the same unit in Vietnam. Neither is sure just how the two brothers ended up in the same unit but they did. Chuck and His brother both recieved purple hearts and bronze or silver stars. Check www.AWOLBUSH.com for the records.

His record of serviceis impecabble, unlike that of our our President.

By the way whats your record of service to the USA?[/quote]

Jersey, I believe floortom was being sarcastic. I could be wrong, but I think he was saying that the hard core right will do to or attempt to do to Hagel what they did to Kerry. That’s the way I read his post not saying we’ll find something dishonorable about Hagel.

17

[quote]croak wrote:
Seriously? I never said which way I leaned on this particular issue or commented on the current state of the war. All I commented on was the statement(s) (he’s said similar things before I just don’t think they got as much national coverage) he recently made. Many people I know in the state that elected Sen. Hagel (where I live and voted for the Senator) kind of chuckle at him being a republican.

That does not mean that the Senator is right or wrong with his statement, but the reaction that a republican senator is disenting is kind of iffy in this case. That was the only point I was trying to make.[/quote]

Oops. Sorry, I shouldn’t have quoted your post before typing, as I wasn’t adressing you specifically. I must’ve hit the “reply” button instead of the “post” one.

My bad.

18

[quote]Buck Nasty wrote:
Seems like Elkhunter hit the nail right on the head! God forbid someone critcize Bush that means they have an axe to grind with him. Funny thing is is in those who idolize Bush they actually believe he has done everything PERFECTLY regarding this war! No WMD’s found, no direct link between Iraq and the 9/11 attacks found and no exit strategy for our troops, yep this president and his admin has done everything PERFECTLY! Don’t believe me? Just ask any Bush supporter!
[/quote]

First of all, I am a Bush supporter. I do not think everything his administration has done is perfect, but who in this world is perfect. Second, your blanket statements are rediculous. No WMD’s, no connection between Iraq and 9/11 and no exit strategy? I am not saying that I KNOW these statements are false, but you really think we KNOW this information. Common sense would dictate not telling the American masses every detail about the war.

People smarter than you and me (and everyone else on this board) spend days and weeks deciding what to release and what to keep out of our minds. It is possible that all of your statements hold some slight truth, but I think it is naive to believe you know the facts well enough to make these statements.

Personally, knowing Iraq had the capability to launch ballistic missles with nuclear warheads into the United States is not something I want to know. Maybe the government had the mental state of the masses in mind not releasing this potentially troubling information. Again, I am not saying I know the facts, but neither do you or anyone else for that matter.

19

[quote]Gianacakos wrote:
Buck Nasty wrote:
Seems like Elkhunter hit the nail right on the head! God forbid someone critcize Bush that means they have an axe to grind with him. Funny thing is is in those who idolize Bush they actually believe he has done everything PERFECTLY regarding this war! No WMD’s found, no direct link between Iraq and the 9/11 attacks found and no exit strategy for our troops, yep this president and his admin has done everything PERFECTLY! Don’t believe me? Just ask any Bush supporter!

First of all, I am a Bush supporter. I do not think everything his administration has done is perfect, but who in this world is perfect. Second, your blanket statements are rediculous. No WMD’s, no connection between Iraq and 9/11 and no exit strategy? I am not saying that I KNOW these statements are false, but you really think we KNOW this information. Common sense would dictate not telling the American masses every detail about the war.

People smarter than you and me (and everyone else on this board) spend days and weeks deciding what to release and what to keep out of our minds. It is possible that all of your statements hold some slight truth, but I think it is naive to believe you know the facts well enough to make these statements.

Personally, knowing Iraq had the capability to launch ballistic missles with nuclear warheads into the United States is not something I want to know. Maybe the government had the mental state of the masses in mind not releasing this potentially troubling information. Again, I am not saying I know the facts, but neither do you or anyone else for that matter.[/quote]

So true! They are also not telling us about those disentigration rayguns they kept from the martians crashing at Roswell either. I would rather not know as well. I am so glad that there are herders for us dumb sheep so blissfully unawares. :slight_smile:

20

It’s nice to see that Bush supporters are also sporting those nifty shiny silver hats at times…

Do tinfoil hats keep you cool in the summer as it reflects so well?