T Nation

Hack's Election Thoughts

Now that the election is over and the results have fully registered, I find I have about the same reaction that I do after any meaningful election: I hope things improve. I will not go as far in my criticisms of the Bush administration as some, but I think that anyone would be dishonest in saying that this administration/presidency has been a smashing success. It hasn’t.

In the interests of full disclosure let me say that I am not now nor have I ever been a particular supporter of G.W. Bush. The exception being from 9/11/2001 up until around November of 2003. I think this is about the time I noticed things in Iraq kind of ‘getting away’ from this administration.

And the most disappointing thing has been Bush’s stubborn refusal to alter his thinking on the situation. I think that the characteristics that served him well in the months after 9/11 have been to his and our nation’s detriment in the years since. I give him credit where it is due (and some is certainly due the man) and I criticize him when it’s warranted.

I think that we are still in Iraq for one reason: To clean up the mess we made. Iraq came about because of faulty intelligence. In retrospect we can say that it was a mistake. We are there now because Bush rightly feels that we went in and removed the power, put the county in turmoil, and now we have a responsibility to put things right. But there in lies the problem. How do we do it?

I have never supported Democrats because I fundamentally disagree with them on almost every issue that’s important to me. That said, I supported Clinton as President. I did not want to see him fail. I don’t believe that he DID fail in many areas. I feel that he did fail in some. That said, I want these Democrats, coming to D.C. in January, to be successful. I want them to improve the economy. They point out ‘weaknesses’ in the economy. I want them fixed. I want them to address Social Security. I want them help bring the nation together again. And I want them to help us find a solution in Iraq while still keeping this nations citizens safe. I support them in all of that. I also support them lowering my taxes, should they feel that’s a good idea at some point.

In any event, let’s stop bitching and criticizing before they’ve even gotten to work. Let’s wish them success because if they DO succeed, we ALL benefit.

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
Now that the election is over and the results have fully registered, I find I have about the same reaction that I do after any meaningful election: I hope things improve. I will not go as far in my criticisms of the Bush administration as some, but I think that anyone would be dishonest in saying that this administration/presidency has been a smashing success. It hasn’t.

In the interests of full disclosure let me say that I am not now nor have I ever been a particular supporter of G.W. Bush. The exception being from 9/11/2001 up until around November of 2003. I think this is about the time I noticed things in Iraq kind of ‘getting away’ from this administration.

And the most disappointing thing has been Bush’s stubborn refusal to alter his thinking on the situation. I think that the characteristics that served him well in the months after 9/11 have been to his and our nation’s detriment in the years since. I give him credit where it is due (and some is certainly due the man) and I criticize him when it’s warranted.

I think that we are still in Iraq for one reason: To clean up the mess we made. Iraq came about because of faulty intelligence. In retrospect we can say that it was a mistake. We are there now because Bush rightly feels that we went in and removed the power, put the county in turmoil, and now we have a responsibility to put things right. But there in lies the problem. How do we do it?

I have never supported Democrats because I fundamentally disagree with them on almost every issue that’s important to me. That said, I supported Clinton as President. I did not want to see him fail. I don’t believe that he DID fail in many areas. I feel that he did fail in some. That said, I want these Democrats, coming to D.C. in January, to be successful. I want them to improve the economy. They point out ‘weaknesses’ in the economy. I want them fixed. I want them to address Social Security. I want them help bring the nation together again. And I want them to help us find a solution in Iraq while still keeping this nations citizens safe. I support them in all of that. I also support them lowering my taxes, should they feel that’s a good idea at some point.

In any event, let’s stop bitching and criticizing before they’ve even gotten to work. Let’s wish them success because if they DO succeed, we ALL benefit. [/quote]

GREAT POST!!!

I really do agree with what you say (except that I agree with Dems on at least a couple of issues).

Let’s see if the Dems can put their money where their mouth is before going all doomsday about the future of this great country.

That is a good post and good to know. I can fully appreciate people thinking Democrats would be worse and those who are ideologically opposed to many of their positions, particularly the more liberal positions. 
What I CAN'T understand is the people who defend George Bush to their dying breath and insist that he's been a great and effective president. It just makes me wonder when exactly they went blind.

After reading your other posts I’m a bit surprised by this tone. It is a welcome change.

However the democrats won’t do much except go onto a different path of corruption.

I agree we need to do something for Iraq as we’ve helped destroy that contry. Some forms of reparations taking the form in varous modalities.

I completely disagree with your assertion that this invasion was brought on by faulty intelligence. Information was cherry-picked to help drum up support for a war this administration and it’s backers wanted. Scenarios like this happen all the time and are an integral part of this country’s foreign policy. It must be stopped!


I believe the republicans received a well deserved kick in the ass. They had opportunity after opportunity to set things right and they snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory time and time again.

I do not believe Bush?s presidency is a complete failure, two things were done correctly: the two new Supreme Court justices and the economy is booming and not because of Enron making up false numbers and the build-to-flip internet companies.

Bush?s stunning failure is not Iraq, but the belief system that put us there. He sincerely believed he could change things in the Middle East. He believed those numb-nuts over there want democracy and freedom, that we could win the ?heart and minds? of anybody in the Middle East.

One thing is constant about the Middle East, they hate Jews and they hate the U.S. There isn?t a whole lot we could do about that. Allah himself could come down, perch him self on top of Mecca and declare that Jews are a-ok and the Americans aren?t so bad and the arabs wouldn?t believe The United States coming with guns blazing sure wasn?t and didn?t win us any friends.

You go to war to beat the enemy and force them to the surrender table not to win their “hearts and minds”. That is where Bush fucked up in the Middle East. He would have been far more successful inviting Saddam over to Geneva and turning him to our side. All it would have taken is money.

Bottom line is that we don’t need democratic governments in the ME, we need them to not want to blow us up, and if they do then they should be destroyed.

My thoughts on the election is that better the Republicans get a wake up call now rather that 2008. Perhaps they can get themselves in line. What would be even better is if an independent or Libertarian made a successful run at the white house.

I detest the democrat hand-me-down, state dependence, welfare loving wealth redistributing, baby killing ways and I will never vote for one. But I can say the republicans have done nothing to deserve my vote. We really need something new this two party system is out of date and out of touch.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
After reading your other posts I’m a bit surprised by this tone. It is a welcome change.[/quote]

Yeah Hack, you might want to change your password, I think an adult has been using your account…

OR

Wow Hack, those new meds are much more effective!

OR

Wow, the Dems have been elected for only 2 days and they’ve already made you a lot smarter!

OR

Ah, PMS is over for this month, is it?

Ok, I’m all out of wise cracks now.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
… the economy is booming and not because of Enron making up false numbers and the build-to-flip internet companies.
[/quote]

Huh?

Lowering the interest rate propped up our economy.

This has run its course.

Using the price increase on 30 stocks is not an indication that our economy is booming.

What did you say you did for a living?

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
pat36 wrote:
… the economy is booming and not because of Enron making up false numbers and the build-to-flip internet companies.

Huh?

Lowering the interest rate propped up our economy.

This has run its course.

Using the price increase on 30 stocks is not an indication that our economy is booming.

What did you say you did for a living?[/quote]

Many economic indicators are up, job growth, stock market, etc. I’d say it’s doing well right about now. Who said anything about 30 stocks? Lowering interest rates helped but was not the sole reason for the rebound.
I did not say what I did for a living.

Good on ya Hack, very reasonable opinion there. Although I hope you realize that you’ve forever destroyed your credibility on these forums. From now on, whenever you post something flagrantly conservative or inflammatory, people are going to read it and say “oh, that’s just Hack being silly, well all know he’s a big softy when it comes down to it.” If I were you I’d create a new account with a new handle, maybe Wack Hilson or nosliW kcaH.

Anyway, regarding the elections, I have to admit, I’m excited. I’ve never been a Bush supporter either, although I voted for him over Kerry 2 years ago. As a general rule though, I dislike the democrats just as much, more if the ACLU is brought into the mix. So I have to say that it was hard for me to vote an almost straight party ticket for the Dems on Tuesday, I felt dirty afterwards. But I honestly believe that it’s the necessary thing for the country right now. Not so much because the democrats will do a better job than the republicans, but because of the fact that the executive branch and the legislative branch are now better balanced. They’ll be forced to either work together and get things done, or butt heads for 2 years while America suffers. I don’t think the latter is really an option.

Over the past several years, the partisan mudslinging and general feuding between the two parties has gotten worse and worse. The democrats have been merciless in their criticism of the republicans, because they had the power. Meanwhile the republicans have sat rather smugly at the top returning fire with taunts of “well if you think we’re wrong, tell us how to do it better” knowing full well that the democrats had no time to come up with plans for things like that when they were spending all their time trying to catch the administration with their pants down. Now things are back to even again, and at a time where we have no option but to get things done. I truly hope and believe that the next two years could be some of the most progressive and efficient years in the political history of our country. And if not? oh well, burn the place to the ground and start over with sticks and clubs!

Viva la revolution,
Jay

P.S. I’ll now be returning to my normal Libertarian policy of just arrogantly making fun of both sides of the political spectrum while wishing I belonged to an actual party that had the clout do do anything.

::Claps::

Good post. I don’t agree completely, but it was well thought out, and not the crazy-ass bull we’re used to seeing here on this forum.

I hope the Dems can at least introduce many new bills, even if they get shot down so the American people can get a look at the platform they’ll be running in 08’. One hopefully not filled with nonsense like Gay marriage, God in the pledge, and flag burning.

We’ll see whats happened, and hope for change. Good job being reasonable Hack!

I don’t think my take here is unique. I think that - despite so much bluster - that most people hope for positive results for America (I guess by ‘people’ I mean AMERICAN people), no matter who holds the power, even it it’s the opposition party.

I go through my verbal gymnastics and and hurl my share of vitriolic, anti-democrat rhetroric. In the end, though, I settle down and hope that it works out best for this country. When I read about Pelosi and Bush’s meeting today, I had nothing but good feelings. Optimism that a few things can get done. Chances are good that optimism will get dashed hard and soon because these two parties do not play well together. But when and IF they ever do, it will be to the betterment of the United States.

I shall now return to the regularly scheduled non-sensical ravings of my lunatic mind.

Good Post. But let’s be honest with ourselves. We went into Iraq because of oil - what George Keenan called “The Greatest Material Prize in History.” It’s why we support Isreal, have military bases in Saudi, and why Bush gives a back rub to the Saudi King every time he visits.

Controlling the world’s energy resources gives what George Keenan called “Veto Power” over other countries. We don’t want to own the oil, but “we want to have our hands on the spicket” just in case… [Noam Chomsky]

The claims about WMD’s was a joke. The reason they had to claim that Iraq bought “yellow cake” (enriched uranium) from Niger was because Iraq didn’t have a nuclear reactor capable of making uranium. The whole Valerie Plame case was Bush’s revenge on the CIA agent (Plame’s husband) who investigated the Niger yellow cake claim and basically said it was bullshit.

[quote]jason1122 wrote:
Good Post. But let’s be honest with ourselves. We went into Iraq because of oil - what George Keenan called “The Greatest Material Prize in History.” It’s why we support Isreal, have military bases in Saudi, and why Bush gives a back rub to the Saudi King every time he visits.

Controlling the world’s energy resources gives what George Keenan called “Veto Power” over other countries. We don’t want to own the oil, but “we want to have our hands on the spicket” just in case… [Noam Chomsky]

The claims about WMD’s was a joke. The reason they had to claim that Iraq bought “yellow cake” (enriched uranium) from Niger was because Iraq didn’t have a nuclear reactor capable of making uranium. The whole Valerie Plame case was Bush’s revenge on the CIA agent (Plame’s husband) who investigated the Niger yellow cake claim and basically said it was bullshit.

[/quote]

Umm… WHat are you talking about? This whole paragraph has nothing to do with Hacks post. At all. Stop trying to stir something up, this isn’t a thread about left or right, it’s a thread about left and right combining to make a better America.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
jason1122 wrote:
Good Post. But let’s be honest with ourselves. We went into Iraq because of oil - what George Keenan called “The Greatest Material Prize in History.” It’s why we support Isreal, have military bases in Saudi, and why Bush gives a back rub to the Saudi King every time he visits.

Controlling the world’s energy resources gives what George Keenan called “Veto Power” over other countries. We don’t want to own the oil, but “we want to have our hands on the spicket” just in case… [Noam Chomsky]

The claims about WMD’s was a joke. The reason they had to claim that Iraq bought “yellow cake” (enriched uranium) from Niger was because Iraq didn’t have a nuclear reactor capable of making uranium. The whole Valerie Plame case was Bush’s revenge on the CIA agent (Plame’s husband) who investigated the Niger yellow cake claim and basically said it was bullshit.

Umm… WHat are you talking about? This whole paragraph has nothing to do with Hacks post. At all. Stop trying to stir something up, this isn’t a thread about left or right, it’s a thread about left and right combining to make a better America.[/quote]

Noam Chomsky? I may not be a ranting anti-liberal in THIS thread. But I’m not ready to hear anything Chomsky has to say unless I want to experience extreme liberal elitism. So much so that the guy’s almost a parody of himself.

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:

Noam Chomsky? I may not be a ranting anti-liberal in THIS thread. But I’m not ready to hear anything Chomsky has to say unless I want to experience extreme liberal elitism. So much so that the guy’s almost a parody of himself. [/quote]

I disagree with that on alot of levels, but as for your original point, I want to compliment you on bieng rational, and respectfully civil.

I do agree and hope there is a good change, so Im with you on that one.

[quote]BluePfaltz wrote:
Hack Wilson wrote:

Noam Chomsky? I may not be a ranting anti-liberal in THIS thread. But I’m not ready to hear anything Chomsky has to say unless I want to experience extreme liberal elitism. So much so that the guy’s almost a parody of himself.

I disagree with that on alot of levels, but as for your original point, I want to compliment you on bieng rational, and respectfully civil.

I do agree and hope there is a good change, so Im with you on that one.
[/quote]

Well, you can disagree on as many levels as you like. I’m never going to be a lap-dog conservative for liberals to enjoy because they will not stand their ground on the issues that are really important. If you do not have problems with people like Chomsky then you have either not READ or been exposed to his anti-American rhetoric, or you agree with him. If the latter is the case then I’ll just regard you as another liberal crackpot, concerned more with your ‘world citizenship’ then with the well being of the United States.

Let me make things a bit more clear. I believe that Noam Chomky not only hates AMERICA, I believe that he hates AMERICANS. That is, he hates Americans that do not share his liberal, “enlightened” views (i.e. anti-Americanism). He is part of the insolated, isolated liberal elite that do not seek or accept views outside their own. They preach tolerance while they have NO tolerance for anyone who disagrees with their fundemental views. They preach against ‘racism’. As long as it’s the RIGHT ‘racism’. Do not discriminate against blacks, or Arabs, or whatever current minority catches their fancy. But to be one of them you must also BE ‘racist’. You MUST view Christians, southernors, conservatives, Israel with derision. You must ridicule them and mock them.

So while I hope that this country can improve and do better, I also don’t think that we are in QUITE the dire straights that you and the Chomskites might have us believe. Unlike them, I don’t care who does what’s right for America. I just what what’s right. What’s best for me and my family and my country. Liberals like Chomsky want what they believe in mandated for all. And they want the people THEY believe in to spread the gospel and make the changes. If a ‘non-believer’ wants to make his mark, well, he’s not part of the club, now, is he?

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
So while I hope that this country can improve and do better, I also don’t think that we are in QUITE the dire straights that you and the Chomskites might have us believe. Unlike them, I don’t care who does what’s right for America. I just what what’s right. What’s best for me and my family and my country. Liberals like Chomsky want what they believe in mandated for all. And they want the people THEY believe in to spread the gospel and make the changes. If a ‘non-believer’ wants to make his mark, well, he’s not part of the club, now, is he?[/quote]

No, I don’t think Chomsky’s like that. I just think he’s absolutely convinced that the Republican party can’t do right for America. I wouldn’t say I agree with him. Certainly not this administration or the party in its current state, but I wouldn’t unconditionally say that positive change can’t come from that avenue as well.

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
jason1122 wrote:
Good Post. But let’s be honest with ourselves. We went into Iraq because of oil - what George Keenan called “The Greatest Material Prize in History.” It’s why we support Isreal, have military bases in Saudi, and why Bush gives a back rub to the Saudi King every time he visits.

Controlling the world’s energy resources gives what George Keenan called “Veto Power” over other countries. We don’t want to own the oil, but “we want to have our hands on the spicket” just in case… [Noam Chomsky]

The claims about WMD’s was a joke. The reason they had to claim that Iraq bought “yellow cake” (enriched uranium) from Niger was because Iraq didn’t have a nuclear reactor capable of making uranium. The whole Valerie Plame case was Bush’s revenge on the CIA agent (Plame’s husband) who investigated the Niger yellow cake claim and basically said it was bullshit.

Umm… WHat are you talking about? This whole paragraph has nothing to do with Hacks post. At all. Stop trying to stir something up, this isn’t a thread about left or right, it’s a thread about left and right combining to make a better America.

Noam Chomsky? I may not be a ranting anti-liberal in THIS thread. But I’m not ready to hear anything Chomsky has to say unless I want to experience extreme liberal elitism. So much so that the guy’s almost a parody of himself. [/quote]

Obviosly you have never read a Chompsky book, listened to him speak or debate. You know what other say about him - like most!

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
BluePfaltz wrote:
Hack Wilson wrote:

Noam Chomsky? I may not be a ranting anti-liberal in THIS thread. But I’m not ready to hear anything Chomsky has to say unless I want to experience extreme liberal elitism. So much so that the guy’s almost a parody of himself.

I disagree with that on alot of levels, but as for your original point, I want to compliment you on bieng rational, and respectfully civil.

I do agree and hope there is a good change, so Im with you on that one.

Well, you can disagree on as many levels as you like. I’m never going to be a lap-dog conservative for liberals to enjoy because they will not stand their ground on the issues that are really important. If you do not have problems with people like Chomsky then you have either not READ or been exposed to his anti-American rhetoric, or you agree with him. If the latter is the case then I’ll just regard you as another liberal crackpot, concerned more with your ‘world citizenship’ then with the well being of the United States.

Let me make things a bit more clear. I believe that Noam Chomky not only hates AMERICA, I believe that he hates AMERICANS. That is, he hates Americans that do not share his liberal, “enlightened” views (i.e. anti-Americanism). He is part of the insolated, isolated liberal elite that do not seek or accept views outside their own. They preach tolerance while they have NO tolerance for anyone who disagrees with their fundemental views. They preach against ‘racism’. As long as it’s the RIGHT ‘racism’. Do not discriminate against blacks, or Arabs, or whatever current minority catches their fancy. But to be one of them you must also BE ‘racist’. You MUST view Christians, southernors, conservatives, Israel with derision. You must ridicule them and mock them.

So while I hope that this country can improve and do better, I also don’t think that we are in QUITE the dire straights that you and the Chomskites might have us believe. Unlike them, I don’t care who does what’s right for America. I just what what’s right. What’s best for me and my family and my country. Liberals like Chomsky want what they believe in mandated for all. And they want the people THEY believe in to spread the gospel and make the changes. If a ‘non-believer’ wants to make his mark, well, he’s not part of the club, now, is he?[/quote]

Again you must never have read Chompsky or…

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
Now that the election is over and the results have fully registered, I find I have about the same reaction that I do after any meaningful election: I hope things improve. I will not go as far in my criticisms of the Bush administration as some, but I think that anyone would be dishonest in saying that this administration/presidency has been a smashing success. It hasn’t.

In the interests of full disclosure let me say that I am not now nor have I ever been a particular supporter of G.W. Bush. The exception being from 9/11/2001 up until around November of 2003. I think this is about the time I noticed things in Iraq kind of ‘getting away’ from this administration.

[/quote]

Are you listening, Headhunter? This is how to complain.

Hack, you make a lot of sense for a white guy. :wink: