T Nation

Gyno, Letro, Dostinex Questions


#1

Hello everyone,
first post here =)
okay so first of all sorry for my english, my first language is french..

I'm 23 years old and I've been training for 6 years. I am 5'9 185 lbs at about 12%.
I already did 2 cycle (test only and test/deca)
My next cycle will consist of :
500 test enanthate
300 tren enanthate
0.5 arimidex e3d
hcg 250i.u e4d (not sure if I should run it throughout cycle or pct only?)
nolva and clomid for pct
I will have letro on hand

My questions :
First of all, I read the stickies about Letro and gyno. In my last cycle, I didn't use arimidex through cycle and I developped some gyno (not much tho, very little lump) so I was wondering if I wanted to try the 'reverse gyno steps' thing with letro, should I run it before cycle and when it's finished just start my cycle to compensate for estrogen rebound?

Also, do you guys suggest I use dostinex throughout cycle or not? it seems to not be very popular but I'm concerned about gyno..
and my last question is what I asked just before.. should I use hcg throught cycle or just pct?
Also, do dostinex/arimidex/hcg will hinder my gains?

Any info is appreciated. Thanks =)


#2

Using letro before your cycle makes no sense at all - your estrogen levels are most likely already low at this point and driving them into the ground with letro prior to your cycle is pointless. Running it during your cycle and tapering post cycle makes more sense to prevent E2 rebound, but adex is quite effective and more predictable than letro.

Dostinex (caber) is sometimes used with Tren to prevent prolactin levels from getting out of control. If estrogen is kept in check, gyno should not be an issue with or without the caber. This is just my opinion, I have no personal experience with Tren.

HCG during cycle is a bit of a waste if you keep your cycle to a reasonable length, but if you have it it should not cause any harm. PCT with Nolva should restart you just fine (no need to use both Nolva and Clomid).


#3

I like your response pcdude.

I will add:

In terms of your proposed cycle, it always seems wise to start of with the shorter half-life acetate ester of trenbolone, rather than the longer enanthate, mainly due to the level of adverse effect many experience with this AAS. The shorter ester means that if adverse effect should appear, reducing the level active in the blood, or terminating the cycle, could be more speedily accomplished. It is not a hard and fast rule, but one many feel is advisable.

Also, it is a common practice to use anastrozole e2d, despite the fact that its half-life is reportedly 72hrs. IME, this is more effective than e3d.

Being that you have not specified the length of your cycle, I cannot say whether hcg would be warranted.

In terms of the gyno, I agree with pcdude.


#4

Okay thanks for the fast input !

but for the part about running letro before my cycle, it was because in the sticky I read that you can reverse some gyno from previous cycle if you run a letro cycle.

it's the sticky named 'gyno' or something

so I wanted to run it before cycle to make sure all the gyno is gone before starting a new cycle .

Thanks ! :slightly_smiling:


#5

here is the part :
'Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

  1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
  2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
  3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I canĂ¢??t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.'

so I thought that maybe doing the reverse gyno thing, then starting my cycle right after ??


#6

As pcdude pointed out, your estrogen level will most likely be low before a cycle, and higher on a cycle. This is due to aromatization. Lower androgen levels (pre-cycle) often mean lower E levels.

If you are worried about the "estrogen rebound" that has been seen previously with letro, having such a rebound when more androgens are susceptible to aromatase, are therefore there is more estrogen, would make fighting off gyno theoretically harder.

Because you will be using AI on cycle, and because it is best to limit use of AIs due to there negative effects, why not use higher levels of said AI (either letro or adex) and kill two birds with one stone?

Of course, the best way to fight gyno would be to use an AI off cycle, and to never go on cycle in the first place or again, but that does not appear to be what you plan.

For health, practicality, and overall cost, I think addressing gyno ON may suit you better. Of course, opinions may differ.


#7

Did you confuse 'tren' with 'deca'??

I know what high prolactin feels like. And I know what it feels like to use caber to fix it. And Ive used tren. I think youre confused.


#8

Sorry to hijack, but BONEZ, I am curious what high prolactin feels like. While I have experience with the progestins in question, I have never had this feeling, nor have I had many issues with such progestins. Addressing such an issue would help my understanding.

I also have been able to take care of any and all problems with manipulation of doses and increases in AI.
This of course, includes increasing highly aromatizable AAS to address sexual dysfunction.

Have you, personally, experienced side-effects that were not addressed with such measures?

At what levels were these sides reached?

Thanks?


#9

300mg of deca with 500mg T with .25mg adex caused anorgasmia after 3 weeks. destroyed libido. beginning of ED. Shitty feeling in general, mentally foggy. Resolved after 5 days of caber.

Nothing even remotely similar to that with tren/dbol cycle.

Cant reply any more


#10

Thanks BONEZ. Appreciate it.

To offer my own experience, I have had identical cycles, even ones using a higher ratio of nandrolone to testosterone, without any such issues.

When I have had any issues, they seemed estrogen related, rather than prolactin related. Here lies one of my complete gaps of experience.

I guess this is where individual reactions and responses to medications are shown.

Again, thanks.


#11

High Prolactin basically feels like your a pmsing woman with an anger issue. It's not fun.


#12

P.S. It's also VERY suppressive to have high amounts of Prolactin/Progesterin along with Estrogen (and test of course) I have found you can suppress testosterone production for a long long time and recover easily, it's when you start adding in elevated levels of estrogen and Progesterone's (Progersterins) that your body will wanna shut down all production.