T Nation

Gyno From Switching Doses on Prop


#1

Hi Guys,

I have been running 100mg's of Prop EOD alongside .25mg Liquid Arimidex EOD for about 8 weeks now. Changed dosage to 150mg's EOD and nips got a bit sensitive and tender for the past week or so. I bumped the Liquid Arimidex up to .5mg ED for the past 4 days or so and have not noticed much difference yet just joints are really stiff but nips are still a bit tender.

Started taking 40mg/s of nolva ED with the Arimidex just to stop gyno till higher dose of arimidex takes play. I was thinking it was possibly the spike in doses is what may have caused this or just the raise in dosage but im not entirely sure. Any suggestions would be great.

Thanks


#2

You were probably on the brink of gyno or the beginning of gyno with 100mg/d. The 150 put you over. Arimidex takes somewhat long to stabilize. More than a week. So stay with the nolvadex until the soreness subsides. Keep the adex at the dose you have it now. And dont stress about it. A few days of sore nipples doesnt mean you have permanent gyno.


#3

I have been taking the Adex the whole time on the cycle at .25mg EOD so are you saying that it takes long to stabilize because of a new dosage as well?


#4

.5 of arimidex should protect you from gyno at a dose of 150 eod. I don't think you need 40mgs of noveldex, you would be better off upping the arimidex until your nipples stop itching. Arimidex is a much better choice in this situation. But the last poster is right,a small amount of gyno during a cycle is not the end of the world. It will go away once you stop. Esp if you stay on the arimidex.


#5

No he wouldnt be better off upping the arimidex until the itching stops. At that rate he'll be using more than a mg per day fairly soon. You made that recommendation and didnt even provide or even hint at a time frame. Useless info and IMO wrong info. Arimidex takes time for blood concentration to reach stable levels. And even when it does reach a stable level it takes more time for aromatization rate to be affected enough to physically notice the changes.

OP stick with the nolvadex. Use an even higher dose if you need to for a few days. Wait for the arimidex to start working. Just try to be off the SERM for a couple of weeks before you start PCT.


#6

Alright I have been on Arimidex since the beginning of the cycle at .25mgs EOD but have now just increased the dosage, so you are saying that even when you increase it to that higher dosage it specifically needs to stabilize in your blood?


#7

I understand that arimidex needs to stabilize in your blood from the very beginning but are you saying that you have to let it stabilize again once you have increased the dosage?


#8

It takes time to notice the effects of an increased dose.


#9

You can front load adex to overcome the typical time of 6-7 days to reach static levels.

As a rule of thumb, normal anastrozole responders will need 1.0mg adex per week [in divided doses] per 100mg of test ester per week.

First time dosing should not use a front load as the consequences can be unpleasant for those who are over-responders. Once you know that your response is normal, you can front load when increasing dose or resuming use.

Liquid products do allow fine dose change increments.

The change in T-->E2 aromatization rates is almost instantaneous. Adex absorbs very well. The serum levels of E2 are a balance of production rates and E2 clearance rates in the liver. Thus E2 levels take time to change. Couple that with a lag time building serum anastrozole levels with a constant dose and things take longer. The the cells respond to the lower E2 rates. Some of that is reduced E2 blockage of T receptors and some is altered E2 mediated gene expression. Changing gene expression leads to changes in the cells and that takes time. In TRT settings, lowering E2 levels to near E2=22pg/ml creates significant changes in 10-14 days.

One should be seeking optimal E2 levels to maximize the effects of one's T dose. E2=22pg/ml seems to be optimal from a libido point of view and that would seem to be a good proxy for things working right.

In PCT, you need to taper off of adex, but that should follow T levels that lag reductions in T dose. You should end up taking 0.5mg during PCT and continue that for a month after PCT to avoid estrogen rebound, then taper out.

Never stop SERMs suddenly, taper out and land on low dose adex.


#10

So unless I have misinterpreted your post, the recommendation for somebody considering a cycle of 500mg of test per week would be around .70mg of adex ED?

Now I know these things are highly individual - and I commend your effort in trying to give users a useful rule of thumb for adex use, but this seems to go against the culturally accepted dose of adex for AAS users (seems high).

Purely playing devil's advocate for the purposes of discussion here, but this 'bro knowledge' (if you want to call it that) may have some scientific backing:

A number of authors contend that the efficacy of Test is due to aromatization.

'During puberty there is a disruption in your body's ability to accurately regulate GH levels leading to increased GH, IGF-1, and insulin levels. This combined with elevated testosterone production characterizes puberty. Research has shown that this disruption is caused by the aromatization of testosterone as well as some direct actions of androgens 4,5,6,7,8.'

The studies for those interested:

  1. Veldhuis JD., Metzger DL., Martha, Jr. PM., et al: Estrogen and testosterone, but not nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalmo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor axis in human: Evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin. Endocrinol Metab. 82(10):3414-3420, 1997
  2. Ulloa-Aguirre A., Blizzard RM., Garcia-Rubi E., et al: Testosterone and oxandrolone, a nonaromatizable androgen, specifically amplify the mass and rate of growth hormone (GH) secreted per burst without altering GH secretory burst duration or frequency or the GH half-life. J Clin. Endocrinol Metab. 71(4):846-854, 1990
  3. Illig R., Prader A. Effect of testosterone on growth hormone secretion in patients with anorchia and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 30:615-618, 1970
  4. Mauras NM., Blizzard RM., Link K., et al: Augmentation of growth hormone secretion during puberty: Evidence for a pulse amplitude-modulated phenomenon. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 64:596-601, 1987
  5. Kerrigan JR., Rogol AD., The impact of gonadal steroid hormone action on growth hormone secretion during childhood and adolescence. Endocr Rev. 13:281-298, 1992

So If I interpret this correctly, AAS users whose primary goal is hypotrophy should be careful not to take to much adex, as they may well cut into your muscle gains by virtue of a less robust GH burst activity and lower subsequent IGF-1 levels.

The question I suppose is always how much is too much for any individual?

I'll be running a 'cut' cycle in run up to our hot Australian summer with 500mg of test per week, so I'll probably take your advice and run .7mg adex ed with the goal of maximising fat loss and see how i go.


#11

From what I have read...estrogen levels have to be high to have a slight increase in igf, gh...but of course this is pretty much speculation when on cycle, the is no hard evidence or tests/proof as far as I can find on humans.

I would rather NOT have high estrogen, it does not feel good and care not for the side effects for a 'possible slight' increase in igf/gh.

From my understanding test can convert two ways...

to DHT or estrogen. And some gets bound to SHBG and is not able to be used.

I think manipulating conversion to estrogen will shift conversion to DHT (if i am wrong someone correct me) this should aid lean ness (as DHT even though deactivated in the muscle by 3a-HSD is active in other tissues in the body and is several times more potent than test @ the AR) but then of course create DHT related sides.


#12

This.


#13

The .5mg ED is working sensitivity has gone away slowly gonna taper back down to about .25mg's ED to see if that will work out for me.


#14

Not a good idea. There is no reason to go back to the dose that you experienced problems with. Be happy that youre getting it figured out without having to get blood tests. Having fluctuating E2 levels is real hassel. Avoid that.


#15

I use arimidex, but have always had nolva on hand since the first time I got AAS induced gyno. Look into getting some nolva to keep around the house, as nolva is a SERM and Arimidex is an AI.

Keep your dose at .5mg ED until symptoms subside, then wait a bit longer, then feel free to lower the dose to one that is suitable for you whether it's by .05mg of .10mg, but stick to that dosage for a minimum of two weeks before lowering dosage again...OR go get bloodwork done to see what your actual estrogen levels are at when you are taking 0.5mgED for a few weeks/a month.


#16

As stated previously, simply changing the amount taken does not result in blood levels immediately reaching the value that will be associated with ongoing use at the new dosage. It would take a couple of weeks to achieve this, if simply changing the dose is all that is done.

What is needed for fairly prompt attainment of the steady state level is to take the new daily amount plus X, where X is the difference in amount per day times the number of days in the half life.

For example, in your case the difference is 0.375 mg/day, if I understand your posts correctly (0.25 mg every other day previously, vs 0.5 mg/day now.) If we take 4 days as an approximation of the half-life, then the result is that an additional 1.5 mg is needed on top of the new daily dosing of 0.5 mg.

Or in other words, 2 mg on the first day of the change in dosing is required to fairly promptly achieve the blood levels associated with ongoing 0.5 mg/day use, when the use up to that point has been at 0.25 mg every other day.


#17

Alright now the sensitivity has started again even at the .5mg's/day and I have a small lump on one side and it's almost like a dull ache not sure if its getting any bigger or staying the same at .5mg's/day but it is tender but not extremely sore. Im going to lower the dosage of prop because obviously my body can't handle the 150mg's EOD without all the side effects, so im gonna bring it back down to 100mg's EOD and hit the nolva for the next little bit. If I was to start letrozole at this point how would I go about it at this point considering I am taking arimidex right now?


#18

Are your ancillary drugs real?

or are you using research chemicals?


#19

Are you sure you are really having nipple sensitivity? If you're paranoid and checking them all the time that alone can make them sore.


#20

I had small tiny lumps from a previous cycle and now I can feel on one side it has gotten bigger over the past few days.

My arimidex is liquid arimidex made by Unimed, because a close friend of mine takes all this gear for his competitions and his best friend runs the lab.

My tits have had this dull ache on the inside and i felt one of them and it felt like it was bigger on one side of the lump than before which sketched me out a bit.

I felt that letrozole would be a good option at this point to possibly get rid of the sensitivity and reverse anything I may have done but do not know too much about it. From what i have heard this stuff is pretty bad for your cholesterol levels and it worries me to take it. Will taking it for a short period really have a bad effect on the blood levels as well as make me feel like shit? Have heard that letro can inhibit gains, is it still possible to gain while taking letro on cycle?