T Nation

GW and Clen Don't Work, WTF?


#1

I am really new to Pharma so forgive my being a pleb and save the antagonistic comments for another thread please.

I am at the Muscularity I want but I just need to get rid of fat. I am a ‘husky’ guy (read, chubby and wants not to be). I use many fitness enablers like MyFitnessPal and BodBot. I eat right, according to all the semi-pro lifters I have in my social circles, albeit, not near an elite level nutrition by any margin.

Enter Clen/GW, the miracle that is probably too good to be true.

I tried Clen first. I took it as instructed from my source, and quickly noticed the “Thermogenic” effect. I ‘cycled’ as instructed, ramped up to a full dose, stayed there for a few days, then climbed down. either a week on or two weeks on followed by 1 and/or 2 week moratorium respectively. I was told to keep eating the way MyFitnessPal tells me. Easy enough. The results were very underwhelming. So much so, I didn’t have any aside from now having spent a lot of money for the privilege of being extra sweaty for 5 months. My source then told me to ‘stack’ with T3 hormone. My research and my Source pretty much tell me that it’s the answer. With the little hiccup of my source moving away, I pick up with Medistar.sc and continue. Stillm I see little to know change.

Being filled with disappointment and self pity from my gullibility, I research more. I came across SARMs and GW-501516. I watched a lot of videos and even asked many of the top educators in the area of interest questions. I came to the decision that I will try GW because all I hear (aside from the controversy about the sides) that it is pure results. So while I figure out where to get GW, I look at forums to reinforce my choice. Even posts on here about how well it worked.

Fast forward to today, my forth week on GW. I was told to Take GW as a stack with at least S4. So the dosage goes;

S4 - 50mg/day split by 2. AMPM
GW - 20mg/day at once before gym.

I was told to do a minimum of 12 weeks and results will be very evident by 4 or so.

This post isn’t accusatory, it’s not a blast of shit at my sources. I just want to know, what about me or what I am doing makes it impossible for me to lose fat? whether by natural means or pharma.

I cannot get below 17% BF. Short replies like “Diet dude” or “Calories in, Calories out” do not help. I am willing to sit down, take notes and CHANGE MY LIFE to someday maybe get a six pack. Someone on here has to have knowledge and/or skill in fitness and nutrition to help me.

-Genetics is not an excuse (look up epigenetics)
-Diet is good enough (as far as I know) to not be the biggest hole in my boat
-I lift and Run/cardio everyday, for usually 2 hours.

The only screen door on my submarine is probably sleep. Being in the Military (shocker, a Pongo uses chems), sleep is at a premium. Late nights, early mornings are a regular thing. Don’t get me started on being in the Field or on Deployment.

I am pleading with anyone that can or will help me. Serious replies only please, I have posted similarly on other forums just to get laughed because I don’t know what I am doing. How else am I going to learn if I get ridiculed for asking questions.


#2

Man that sucks!!
I have had success with the Clen and T3 combo. I use it mainly when I prep for shows. The T3 keeps my thyroid running and the clen is a great thermo. People run their clen in many different ways. I simply run 5 days on and 2 days off instead of ramping up and down. As for GW, I ran it along with about every other SARMS before I started on real gear. Now I don’t even waste my time with SARMS.
Also, The amount of cardio might be a problem and your body is just leveling out. I prefer to train to build muscle instead of training to lose weight. More muscle means more fat burned. Also different types of cardio seem to work better than just doing it at a steady state. As I get leaner I alternate steady state and HIIT cardio. The HIIT seems to help preserve muscle and burn more fat… And more importantly I don’t have to be on the stairmaster for an hour everyday. Making sleep more of a priority is definitely important. I hope this helps out!


#4

Dude, this is an easy question. Your diet sucked, period. Clen works. The fact that you devoted exactly one sentence in that entire post to diet, and all you said was ‘I eat right’, tells me everything I need to know. You didn’t eat at a calorie deficit, so you didn’t lose weight. Clen is great, but it’s not magic. You may be making good food choices (no idea if you actually are), but if the amounts of food, and macro ratios suck, then you won’t see results. You already know the clen wasn’t bunk.

So long story short, I’m convinced that diet is NOT good enough. It IS your biggest hole.


#5

took the words from my mouth, or keyboard…


#6

Aside from Following IIFMM and MyFitnessPal, what would you suggest? because, “you’re diet sucks” is not constructive. I know to eat just far enough into a deficit that you don’t enter starvation mode and such. Hence the marcos and MyFitnessPal app. It’s like me asking, “why can i not win the race?” and you say “your car sucks”. How and why? not just a ‘because’.


#7

Could you elaborate on the HIIT? I haven’t been very good at setting it up for myself, but I get a great workout by visiting a local crossfit gym.

My cardio is usually about 20 min at the start on a treatmill/stairclimber to get warmed up. then at the end I do another interval bit on the spin bikes.

What would your end all be all recommendation be? Give up on SARMs? focus on gear? what Gear? I don’t have a comp nor will I. I just want to look good and to be able to say, I had a six pack for a day.

I have read that a stack of Clen with ‘Winnie’ or "Var’ works especially well.


#8

GW is great when it works but seems to vary a lot between brands

At 17% just do any of these and you will lean out fast…


Obviously eat clean/cut out all sugar etc


#9

On the diabolical information you provided the only assumption is that your car is not up to the job, you may be happy with its performance and it may be comfortable, but when it comes to winning the race it is obviously lacking

now we could suggest you change tyre’s, fit a bigger turbo, strip some weight out the back or fit some uprated suspension, but without knowing what is currently on your car it would all be assuming what the actual issue is and not actually being able to pin point it

its your metaphor so I just ran with it, in simple terms…

what exactly did you eat yesterday? What are your current macros? How often are you cheating? Honest answers only or the advise will be as helpful as “your car is a lemon”

I’ve never used any of the drugs can’t comment on how well they work, but many people have got extremely lean without them. Diet and conditioning do work so maybe a little more attention to them and things might start moving.


#10

You’ve still given me no information on what you actually eat, and how much.

And I didn’t just say your diet sucks. I also referenced food choices and macros. And I said you didn’t eat at a calorie deficit. It’s almost like you just cherry picked one phrase out of my post and ignored the rest.

I can’t give you suggestions on how to adjust your diet if you won’t share more details about your diet. But it is very clear that your diet is the issue because you said you didn’t lose weight, and you confirmed that your gear was legit.


#11

I agree wth @flipcollar 100%. While I’m not a pharma guy, I sure do know a lot about nutrition, and it’s clear that your diet is the issue if you’re not leaning out the way you want, there’s no way around it. Without knowing exactly your calories, macros, etc., I can’t really give any advice on what to change, but I would highly recommend hiring a coach, or taking time to search around T-Nation for nutrition articles and get serious about your nutrition.

If you’re lifting/running every day for 2 hours, those things contradict each other quite a bit and you’re probably already digging yourself into a hole. If you can post your calories and macros that you’ve been eating consistently, it would be easier to provide some insight. You wrote you’re willing to change your life to get a six pack, which truthfully isn’t hard to do, it’s not some magical mystical thing. But, nutrition is 100% the key and that’s where you’re lacking.


#12

AH HA! a direction.

I am 5’11’’ at 202-208 lbs. I was measured to be 17% BF. I workout almost everyday if not everyday. Monday to Sunday for about 2 hours. It’s my happy place. My TDEE is estimated at 3382 cal/day.

Today’s Macros are;

To maintain I need 3382 cal/day according to the Katch-McArdle equation. 2700 cal/day to lose fat.

Carbs @40% : 270 g/day
Protein @40% : 270 g/day
Fat @20% : 60 g/day

so 54g of fat/protein and 12g of fat per meal

I understand that not all fats, proteins and Carbs are the same. Steel cut oats and scrambled eggs for breakfast. Chicken and spinach for snack #1. brown rice, extra lean ground beef and broccoli for lunch. Snack #2 is a hand full of mixed nuts and a shake. Supper, after my gym time, is usually steak/chicken breast/fish and green beans/broccoli/spinach.

I apologize if I came across as angry or upset. This isn’t the place for venting. I am very frustrated with this whole endeavor. All of you have something that you say is relatively easy yet is out of my reach, right now. As of yet, I haven’t been able to succeed even with chems (which kind of equates to a handicap). Most of you on this site look like super heroes. Gods amongst men. I have been very envious of people like you for most of my life. Envy is a poisonous emotion if in the wrong frame of mind. So, about 5 years ago I decided to change myself. I was 235 lbs at 32% BF. There are a lot of stories and post I have seen where many people have gone from 30% to 12% in a year. Ok, I’m not nearly as successful, but they many have had a coach or two and their ducks in a row. That kind of transformation is impressive. I use people like that and people like Derek Weida as inspiration.

Most forums users just am say “check the forums”. That is like going to the junk yard for parts. You wont find anything unless you have a hint as to where to look and what to look for. I am going to read the articles posted by @RampantBadger and see if they help. There are 4100 articles on T-Nation and likely 10x that in the Forums. I just need help finding my Diamond in the rough.

Thank you people SO much for taking to time to help me. You have no idea how much it means to me and how welcome it makes me feel in this forum to not have been chased off already and that you are willing to take the time to reply constructively. It may come across as a sob story and for that I am sorry. I just look up to people that may this seem so easy despite my difficulty on the subject.

again, Thank you @moosejuice0311, @flipcollar, @kd13, @RampantBadger and @robstein posting.


#13

As far as cardio goes…
It changes depending on my goals and if im prepping or not. My HIIT sessions usually last a half hour and are walk/sprint intervals. I like to do these outside because there is so much lag time on the treadmill speeding up and slowing down. You can set the intervals however you want and change them as you get better… They should never become easy or routine.

The main thing is making sure the diet is consistent and on point… You can’t out train a bad diet.

How much clen are you using?


#14

When I took it, I split 200mcg/day so 2x2 tabs of 50mcg.


#15

Thanks for the info, the best thing you can do is make easy small changes to your diet, assuming you eat exactly what you wrote each day you could do something as simple as halving your morning oats portion and also your rice portion. Forget what your app says and go with how your body responds. If your not losing weight then you either need to drop your calories or up your conditioning.

you have not included liquid calories? What exactly do you drink?

Take daily walks if you can, 30 min to an hour depending on free time.

have a dedicated conditioning day, this could be a sprint session for example or join a boxing club.

You have obviously done well to lose the weight you have, the next step may take a bit more work and you will need to constantly make small changes if progress stops.


#16

As for What do I drink . Water. The army has taught me that water is the best thing to drink. Aside from Pre-Workout and the shake at Snack #2. Anything I drink aside from the shake, I usually go for calorie free or something that has less than 20 cal per serving.


#17

It looks like you’re starting in a good place. You’re already tracking food, which is awesome. The main thing I want to point out is that formulas for calculating necessary caloric intake are only moderately useful. There’s a ton of variation from person to person. What you have to be willing to do is modify your diet accordingly if the formula isn’t giving you the desired results. So if it says you need to be at 2700 calories, and you’re not losing weight, then quite simply, the formula is wrong. You should be lower.

I wouldn’t necessarily drop calories from each category though. I believe you should probably reduce carbs. Don’t drop them drastically, but overtime lower them slowly, until you’re eventually at your desired weight. At that point, you can start manipulating things and try to raise carbs while maintaining a low bf%.


#18

Ok, first things first. How many days in the past 4 weeks have you hit your macros and calories exactly? (exactly in this case means within 50 cals).

How many days in the past 4 weeks have you missed meals? How many meals did you miss these days?

How many days in the the past 4 weeks have you cheated on your diet with food and/or calorie containing beverages?

How many days in the past month have you drunk alcohol? How much alcohol do you have when you drink, and how often do you drink in a week?

How much coffee/pre-workout/energy drinks do you have every day? If you say “none” you would be the first Army guy I’ve ever known in my life to not drink caffeinated beverages. So, how much non-water drink do you have?

These are important questions. They point the way to things that may be wrong.

The other questions are:

Specifically, what do you do when you workout? Each day, sets/reps/exercises/weight.

Specifically–what do you do for Army PT and how many days/week?

Specifically–what do you do for cardio when you are training in the gym?

You need to approach this like a scientist. Fat loss and muscle gain is an incredibly emotional thing for most people…so much so that they throw cool-headedness and thinking out the door. Distance yourself from the frustration and start looking at EXACTLY what you’re doing and eating. The other part of this is the following–formulas are not accurate. They may be good starting points but they are only starting points. So they’re not bad, but they can’t be taken as gospel–they’re subject to a bunch of limitations that are not “advertised”.


#19

Alrighty then, I might as well as drop some knowledge.

So this seems pretty simple, move your carbs to Peri workout and I mean weight smashing not bunny training. And if your taking GW at 20mgs a day should be pretty noticeable difference in nutrient partitioning. As long as it’s from a rep source. And the rest of your diet should be meat and veggies and some good fats.


#20

…nutrient partitioning? please explain. I’m not well versed in the lingo.

But Carbs before workout makes sense. Fuel for lifting. and trust me, I lift heavy and I am not a cardio bunny.


#21

I’ll have to compile and get back to you on this