[quote]Teledin wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
If stagnation and slowing things down is no big deal for him that’s ok.
A possibility…though nothing to suggest that changing the routine will cause him to stagnate.[/quote]
I agree with you, but IMO changing the program has a greater risk of slowing progress than staying and progressing on a program that has been giving consistent results.
Again, I agree. All good points. But, all I was trying to do was to get some insight into the tempo portion of the GVT issue. That’s the problem. Every 'just lift and eat’er always assumes that the writer is relentlessly analyzing this one minute detail to the doom of their entire lifting progress. I am always trying to learn. For instance, I am very interested in the progression that Tribunaldude mentioned above. I, personally, don’t know how that progression would look (where you get to doing one body part only once per week w/ lots more volume), but it is very interesting and it’s something i’d like to learn.
I have kept things fresh by rotating several programs throughout the year; each that i’ve kept good rep & set stats for and it’s worked pretty good for me. But, as I stated, I do have difficulty sometimes staying disciplined enough to get all my meals. It’s not the norm, but it happens. Thanks for your input.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
Every 'just lift and eat’er always assumes that the writer is relentlessly analyzing this one minute detail to the doom of their entire lifting progress. [/quote]
This changed my idea of you. You seem to think well, but the message is the same:
Every person who has been lifting for less than a year hasn’t any business not knowing and being eager to learn, but worrying about details.
‘Just lift and eat’ is incomplete, I’ve always said ‘Lift progressively heavy, eat plenty and clean/healthy (by that I assume that the lifter knows the only rule that has to be in check at this level: more than 1lb of protein per pound of bodyweight), take some supps (no more than whey and creatine necessary, again, at this level), and rest properly, or under your possibilities’. With that simple advice any newbie should be able to make progress for about one year, if not, something regarding those points (training, nutrition, supplementation, and rest) is wrong.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
I have kept things fresh by rotating several programs throughout the year;[/quote]
If this works for you, then definitely go for it.
As for keeping things “fresh”, some simple adjustments to the current setup like rotating exercises (e.g. incline or decline for flat bench, push-press for military press, dumbbells for barbells etc.), rep ranges or even changing grip (supinated, neutral, pronated, wide grip, close grip) can work wonders. See Tribunaldude’s post for more on the topic. That way, you can stick with a routine for a long time, given it allows you to make steady progress.
[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Every 'just lift and eat’er always assumes that the writer is relentlessly analyzing this one minute detail to the doom of their entire lifting progress.
This changed my idea of you. You seem to think well, but the message is the same:
Every person who has been lifting for less than a year hasn’t any business not knowing and being eager to learn, but worrying about details.
‘Just lift and eat’ is incomplete, I’ve always said ‘Lift progressively heavy, eat plenty and clean/healthy (by that I assume that the lifter knows the only rule that has to be in check at this level: more than 1lb of protein per pound of bodyweight), take some supps (no more than whey and creatine necessary, again, at this level), and rest properly, or under your possibilities’. With that simple advice any newbie should be able to make progress for about one year, if not, something regarding those points (training, nutrition, supplementation, and rest) is wrong.[/quote]
Thanks. Yes. That’s all i’m saying. For instance, I happen to be 37 years old. I have been lifting since Met-Rx came in two seperate bottles, but did anyone ask that? No. In the end, it makes the ‘lift and eaters’ look ignorant. If you want to roast someone, at least have a legit reason to do so. Unfortunately, forums in general have become a place where some people desperate to feel superior (and usually with nothing better to do) make assumptions about people. It is what it is.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
Thanks. Yes. That’s all i’m saying. For instance, I happen to be 37 years old. I have been lifting since Met-Rx came in two seperate bottles, but did anyone ask that? No. In the end, it makes the ‘lift and eaters’ look ignorant. [/quote] Yes, this has become a never ending mantra. But you have to accept age and training years are no argument for your level; 90% of the people who lift in the same gym I lift since high school look the same.
[quote]If you want to roast someone, at least have a legit reason to do so.[/quote] I wasn’t roasting anyone, but then I wondered. I think by heart that CW followers are a little bit different, or many times misguided about muscle building. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, and many testosterone memebers can’t prove that. But just looking at the guys on the top makes you think ‘nobody at that level trains like that’.
[quote] Unfortunately, forums in general have become a place where some people desperate to feel superior (and usually with nothing better to do) make assumptions about people. It is what it is.[/quote] I agree with that and mostly these people make the forums fall out of topic.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Every 'just lift and eat’er always assumes that the writer is relentlessly analyzing this one minute detail to the doom of their entire lifting progress.
This changed my idea of you. You seem to think well, but the message is the same:
Every person who has been lifting for less than a year hasn’t any business not knowing and being eager to learn, but worrying about details.
‘Just lift and eat’ is incomplete, I’ve always said ‘Lift progressively heavy, eat plenty and clean/healthy (by that I assume that the lifter knows the only rule that has to be in check at this level: more than 1lb of protein per pound of bodyweight), take some supps (no more than whey and creatine necessary, again, at this level), and rest properly, or under your possibilities’. With that simple advice any newbie should be able to make progress for about one year, if not, something regarding those points (training, nutrition, supplementation, and rest) is wrong.
Thanks. Yes. That’s all i’m saying. For instance, I happen to be 37 years old. I have been lifting since Met-Rx came in two seperate bottles, but did anyone ask that? No. In the end, it makes the ‘lift and eaters’ look ignorant. If you want to roast someone, at least have a legit reason to do so. Unfortunately, forums in general have become a place where some people desperate to feel superior (and usually with nothing better to do) make assumptions about people. It is what it is.[/quote]
The biggest/strongest guys very often are the people who did keep it simple.
The smallest guys are often the ones analyzing every minute detail to the detriment of their own progress.
It doesn’t matter how long someone has been training if they have made far less progress than those who are keeping it simple and making more progress.
The greatest factor in making progress is consistency when it comes to getting the food in and training hard.
Many of the newbies here are so afraid of gaining any body fat at all that they don’t even eat enough to grow any muscle. They get some of these articles thrown in their faces (especially by one particular author) that make them literally fear it making that their primary focus.
Someone like that DOES need to reduce the complexity of the concept of lifting weights and growing until they at least learn to simply eat more so they actually make significant progress.
How this concept can seem “ignorant” to you is very strange.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The biggest/strongest guys very often are the people who did keep it simple.[/quote] NOOO really? there has to be some secret.
[quote]The smallest guys are often the ones analyzing every minute detail to the detriment of their own progress.
It doesn’t matter how long someone has been training if they have made far less progress than those who are keeping it simple and making more progress.[/quote] However most people who claim that they are no longer newbs answer with their ‘experience’.
[quote]The greatest factor in making progress is consistency when it comes to getting the food in and training hard.
Many of the newbies here are so afraid of gaining any body fat at all that they don’t even eat enough to grow any muscle. They get some of these articles thrown in their faces (especially by one particular author) that make them literally fear it making that their primary focus. [/quote] Because if you gain bodyfat all your insulin sensitivity will be lost and you’ll be doomed to be a skinny fat.
I agree that the two most important things to making progress in the gym is consistently working very hard and eating enough. I don’t think age matters as much as some do here…I generally see guy’s make gains based on how hard they work in the gym no matter what age. My old man is mid 60’s, bp’s over 3 and squats 5.
I don’t worry about shit like my optimum genetic potential…fuck that shit, I just want to be the best I can right now. Don’t make excuses for yourself…the day I start qualifying shit with phrases like “for my age” is the day I find some other way to exercise. If you aren’t making gains, the first thing I would check is my work ethic in the gym, the second thing would be calories.
I’m not a hard gainer…I wish I could eat you’re food and give you the calories…so I hesitate to jump completely on the eat through plateaus ideology through personal experience…but I’ve known quite a few hard gainers that really helped themselves by upping the calories. Use to be a saying, “feed gains”.
Not only do I remember the early MET-RX…I remember CapTri…About the only thing I bought more then once was dymatrezine…which was a hell of alot cheaper as ephidrine sulphate at natures best…which brings to mind ultimate orange. I’m thinking about trying a pre or post workout drink once I’m able to come wit it in the gym again…I’ll probably give Surge a shot.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
Again, I agree. All good points. But, all I was trying to do was to get some insight into the tempo portion of the GVT issue. [/quote]
Then relax
Poliquin only adds the 4 second tempo thing as an afterthought in GVT.
I doubt anyone really uses a 4 second negative for 10 x 10 and also uses the rest period recommendation.
I am sure that the Germanic lifters did not use a 4 second negative. I am pretty sure Vince Gironda did not have people doing 4 second negatives for 10 x 10.
If you want to extend the negative, I recommend lowering the weight, and stopping 1/2 way down, and then lowering the rest of the way.
After a while you can pause twice on the way down, 1/3 and 2/3 of the way.
Remember that he also says that 10 x 10 doesn’t provide enough load for someone who is more advanced, and that you need to use 10 x 4-6
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Every 'just lift and eat’er always assumes that the writer is relentlessly analyzing this one minute detail to the doom of their entire lifting progress.
This changed my idea of you. You seem to think well, but the message is the same:
Every person who has been lifting for less than a year hasn’t any business not knowing and being eager to learn, but worrying about details.
‘Just lift and eat’ is incomplete, I’ve always said ‘Lift progressively heavy, eat plenty and clean/healthy (by that I assume that the lifter knows the only rule that has to be in check at this level: more than 1lb of protein per pound of bodyweight), take some supps (no more than whey and creatine necessary, again, at this level), and rest properly, or under your possibilities’. With that simple advice any newbie should be able to make progress for about one year, if not, something regarding those points (training, nutrition, supplementation, and rest) is wrong.
Thanks. Yes. That’s all i’m saying. For instance, I happen to be 37 years old. I have been lifting since Met-Rx came in two seperate bottles, but did anyone ask that? No. In the end, it makes the ‘lift and eaters’ look ignorant. If you want to roast someone, at least have a legit reason to do so. Unfortunately, forums in general have become a place where some people desperate to feel superior (and usually with nothing better to do) make assumptions about people. It is what it is.[/quote]
The thing is though that in BB’ing the amount of years doesn’t really determine how advanced you are. What BB’ers use to measure progress is the amount of lean mass gained (or sometimes the ratio of “relatively” lean bodyweight to height) and possibly the strength progression.
Like MEYMZ said, the majority of people you see in the gym year after year look exactly the same as they did 10 years ago. They’ve got lots of time in, but very little in terms of progress.
I’m not saying that this is necessarily you (I don’t really know anything about your progress), just something to consider when responding defensively to people who ARE trying to give you good advice and many of whom are likely more advanced than you are.
As to your original question about tempo, it can have it’s benefits, but for BB’ing purposes you don’t need to actually count out seconds (be exact) with rep tempos. And in most cases it’s just overthinking/overcomplicating things.
Just contract/lift as hard as you can against the weight (trying to lift it quickly will help with this) and lower the weight under control. Anything beyond that really isn’t worth worrying about in the majority of cases.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Again, I agree. All good points. But, all I was trying to do was to get some insight into the tempo portion of the GVT issue.
Then relax
Poliquin only adds the 4 second tempo thing as an afterthought in GVT.
I doubt anyone really uses a 4 second negative for 10 x 10 and also uses the rest period recommendation.
I am sure that the Germanic lifters did not use a 4 second negative. I am pretty sure Vince Gironda did not have people doing 4 second negatives for 10 x 10.
If you want to extend the negative, I recommend lowering the weight, and stopping 1/2 way down, and then lowering the rest of the way.
After a while you can pause twice on the way down, 1/3 and 2/3 of the way.
Remember that he also says that 10 x 10 doesn’t provide enough load for someone who is more advanced, and that you need to use 10 x 4-6
[/quote]
He probably also uses rep tempos to standardize the workouts and prevent the athletes he trains from “cheating” or injuring themselves by letting the weight free fall on the eccentric or bouncing out of the bottom of the exercise.
This is likely most important with beginners (and possibly some intermediates) which is who the program is targeted towards.
This has been interesting despite some of the comments. For me, I would say I can claim experience at this point. I am about as genetically average as they come.
I am ectomorphic and was 149lbs. when I graduated high school at 6’1" (pathetic). In the years since, I have managed to put on about 60lbs. of healthy, athletic looking size, but I am obviously never going to be mistaken for a BB’er. In my earlier years, I had considered steroids because I had that ‘size at all cost’ mentality for a while, but I think as i’ve aged I appreciate the Men’s Health look much more and life has taken some of the time I used to be able to spend on this endeavor. I will always train, but I have to admittedly put it in perspective now. I have tried to learn from all of the programs, supps. and fads that have come and gone over the years and I think in the end that is where I draw my experience from.
Thanks for all the input.
In regards the tempo dont get to hung up on it, he basically wants people no to bounce out of the bottom and only go a small bit up.
Just go all the way up and come back down under control, that will get you in and around his tempos
Wish you the best with that program, its not friggin easy 
ps I heard Sento is an 80lb midget
Lol. Yeah squats especially brutal. Thanks.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
Lol. Yeah squats especially brutal. Thanks.[/quote]
Anyway, my original point was that like CT recommends, you can light up the nervous system with say 5 x 3 heavy, and then do 10 x 6 like advanced GVT.
[quote]300andabove wrote:
In regards the tempo dont get to hung up on it, he basically wants people no to bounce out of the bottom and only go a small bit up.
Just go all the way up and come back down under control, that will get you in and around his tempos
Wish you the best with that program, its not friggin easy
ps I heard Sento is an 80lb midget :P[/quote]
Don’t you have some tea party to get to or something. 
[quote]300andabove wrote:
In regards the tempo dont get to hung up on it, he basically wants people no to bounce out of the bottom and only go a small bit up.
Just go all the way up and come back down under control, that will get you in and around his tempos
:P[/quote]
Going up and down under control will result in no where near as much TUT as prescribed by CP. Coincidentally, I’m starting my fourth week of GVT tomorrow, and it’s kicking my ass. I have been counting 1 mississippi 2 mississippi…for every rep - it’s brutal.
Some people in this thread are claiming that it was only meant as an after though, but I strongly disagree; the slow tempo makes this workout much different than it would be under a normal/comfortable tempo. My squat max is ~240 (I only front squat heavy), and I’m using less than a plate on each set of squats, increasing 2% each week on most movements.
I think that the tempo is an important factor of GVT that should not be overlooked. I have gained 8 lbs of muscle in the last 3 weeks. (Maybe a little fat, Ive been eating more, too.)
I brought this up because I experienced unreal soreness with Waterbury’s rep suggestion (fast as you can in good form). I was sore on nearly every bodypart and was already training regularly. I am going to give GVT a try with this method and i’ll post back about it. I think GVT will kick someones as either way, but the results due to rep speed variation should be interesting. Thanks.
[quote]pikehunter wrote:
I brought this up because I experienced unreal soreness with Waterbury’s rep suggestion (fast as you can in good form). I was sore on nearly every bodypart and was already training regularly. I am going to give GVT a try with this method and i’ll post back about it. I think GVT will kick someones as either way, but the results due to rep speed variation should be interesting. Thanks.[/quote]
Keep us updated when you see progress, you may see changes with controlled eccentrics.