T Nation

GVT vs. Waterbury

I have been training for 4 months using the routines suggested in Waterbury’s Huge in a Hurry with good success, but I am in need of a change. I remember using Poliquin’s German Volume Training years ago with success and I am going to give that a go again. Here’s my question: Waterbury’s theory of lifting ‘as fast as possible in good form’ to recruit maximum motor units rings true with me, but it is in opposition to the 4-0-2 tempo suggested in GVT.

Any thougts? I was thinking that combining the old with the new might be great, but i’m not educated enough in this area to begin challenging someone like Poliquin on this. I’m thinking this was done for a reason. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

you will still want to get your time under tension eccentric, but (if i recall correctly) slower concentric is for beginners on phase 1 GVT.

you’ve completed a 10x10 already so you could go with max concentric while still benefiting from the time under tension burn.

please post back your results with the GVT (i hurt my back so i’m doing phase 1 now with leg press as my adaption and it’s a fun program)

Thanks Thrux for the help. I have been slacking lately and need to get squared away. I have a good build, but I am ectomorphic and must always keep quality cals. coming in. My personal life has been hectic and that’s when I begin to slip (missing meals). I know GVT demands proper food intake and that’s what i’m going to do. Thanks again. I’ll post the results from my 8 week GVT routine.

This is just stupid.

Just lift weights and eat food. There is no exact science or formula to go along with this.

Nor do you need to follow some exact, pre-written program - in fact it is probably better if you do not.

::edit::

And what results could you possibly have to post about after only 8 WEEKS.

also, facepalm @ “ectomorph”.

Yup. if the program has been giving you some good gains, it makes perfect sense to switch to something else, simply for the sake of changing things up.

Yes indeedy.

[quote]pikehunter wrote:
I have been training for 4 months using the routines suggested in Waterbury’s Huge in a Hurry with good success, but I am in need of a change. [/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I guess Poliquin just through in that tempo thing as some filler material him having all that free time and all. I have an idea…why don’t you start the “just lift and eat” website?! I think that’s the exact theory Poliquin uses for all those Olympic athletes he trains. Waterbury too. How silly of him to add things like a written program and rep speed. Silly world class trainers.

No one is telling you to just “lift and eat”, although that seems to be a mantra that needs to be repeated in order to participate in the recently started “fast-track to the t-cell” program.

Regardless “lift and eat” is STILL good basic advice that will provide you with everything you need, if you choose to simply meditate on what “lift and eat” really means -

(NOTE: said meditation MUST be done only in the dominican republic where mangoes are 98% sweeter than in the the US and the continent, and need to be eaten over the kitchen sink, and you magically shift 15 pounds of adipose tisue to lean mass yada yada yada simply by eating homegrown rutubagas with the appropriate fenuplex protocol, but thats common news).

However, you yourself stated that the program you WERE following was giving you GOOD GAINS, i.e. gains that you were satisfied with.

By playing with caloric intake, adjusting rep ranges, rotating in/out movements and adding movements, etc etc etc you can continue with making adjustments to that original template you started with (right up to the point where you’re eventually training a SINGLE body part each day with a LOT more volume and more movements than you originally started) all until you TRULY stall many years later, and (hopefully) considerably heavier and more built than you started off.

Why overhaul whats admittedly working simply for “changing things up”?

[quote]pikehunter wrote:
Yeah, you’re right. I guess Poliquin just through in that tempo thing as some filler material him having all that free time and all. I have an idea…why don’t you start the “just lift and eat” website?! I think that’s the exact theory Poliquin uses for all those Olympic athletes he trains. Waterbury too. How silly of him to add things like a written program and rep speed. Silly world class trainers.[/quote]

Fair statement, but what does it matter? I wanted to change programs. Do you know anything about me? Do you have any knowledge as to what works for me or what is currently happening with me after 4 months on Waterbury’s program? It amazes me that if someone needs advice or assistance, one’s chances of receiving it through forums is moderate at best.

IF HOWEVER, you need useless, wise ass comments, people will come from all over the world. I mean for god’s sake…I simply ask a question about tempo and every d@%#*! bag with nothing to do has to purge there personal frustration with the rest of the world that can’t just simplify it down to ‘just lift and eat’. Ridiculous.

[quote]pikehunter wrote:
I have been training for 4 months using the routines suggested in Waterbury’s Huge in a Hurry with good success, but I am in need of a change. I remember using Poliquin’s German Volume Training years ago with success and I am going to give that a go again. Here’s my question: Waterbury’s theory of lifting ‘as fast as possible in good form’ to recruit maximum motor units rings true with me, but it is in opposition to the 4-0-2 tempo suggested in GVT.

Any thougts? I was thinking that combining the old with the new might be great, but i’m not educated enough in this area to begin challenging someone like Poliquin on this. I’m thinking this was done for a reason. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.[/quote]

Here is an option:

Example Chest:
Bench press 3 x 3 at 80%
Decline dumbell press, 4 x 10 at 60%
Bench press 3 x 3 at 80%
Decline dumbell press 3 x 10 at 60%
Bench press 2 x 3 at 80%
Decline dumbell press 3 x 10 at 60%

Stick with Waterbury for now. You may need to make minor changes but if you are still progressing then completely changing everything is unnecessary.

Waterbury gets bashed a lot, but I think this is more to do with the way he puts across his ideas. To be fair, most authors use hyperbolé to their detriment, CW just gets picked on for it more than others.

His programs are very effective, especially for beginners - if you have the time to train with such a high frequency.

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:

(NOTE: said meditation MUST be done only in the dominican republic where mangoes are 98% sweeter than in the the US and the continent, and need to be eaten over the kitchen sink, and you magically shift 15 pounds of adipose tisue to lean mass yada yada yada simply by eating homegrown rutubagas with the appropriate fenuplex protocol, but thats common news).
[/quote]

Shhhh!

If you look hard enough, you can make out the mythical loller-berry…

[quote]pikehunter wrote:
Fair statement, but what does it matter? I wanted to change programs. Do you know anything about me? Do you have any knowledge as to what works for me or what is currently happening with me after 4 months on Waterbury’s program? It amazes me that if someone needs advice or assistance, one’s chances of receiving it through forums is moderate at best.

IF HOWEVER, you need useless, wise ass comments, people will come from all over the world. I mean for god’s sake…I simply ask a question about tempo and every d@%#*! bag with nothing to do has to purge there personal frustration with the rest of the world that can’t just simplify it down to ‘just lift and eat’. Ridiculous. [/quote]

While I agree there is an inordinate amount of posters desperately trying to sound hardcore on this site their cries to “eat and lift” do serve a purpose.

How so? There are big bucks to be made in the fitness industry, so if they can somehow convince you need their products to succeed (programs, equipment, etc…) the better off they will be (financially). Minor issues are blown out of proportion when their have a financial interest in it.

Every seller is pulling you in their direction until you don’t know if you are coming or going.

This is where the “eat and lift” crowd shine. They help bring the pendulum back to the center. Is everything the sellers selling useless? No, but in order to differentiate themselves from their competitors they had to make some pretty wild claims. Claims that most people want to believe because it’s more more pleasant than reality.

By “dumbing” things down to “eat and lift” it makes you realize that most things are not that important.

For example: If you’re not eating enough calories and you do GVT and follow the tempo - what gains do you expect to make in mass?

Now lets assume you were eating a calorie surplus, did GVT, but didn’t follow the tempo recommendation - what kind of gains do you expect to make?

The answer should be clear. The second option would give the best results in mass.

Of course you might ask what kind of results you’d make if you ate a surplus, and followed GVT exactly as written (with tempo recommendations)?

Who knows if you’d get the exact same results. With the tempo you’d have to use lighter weights, but you’d have longer TUT. Without the tempo you’d use heavier weights which increases tension.

Ultimately if you really bust your ass either way I don’t think it will make much of a difference. Certainly not enough for it to make you doubt your current routine.

So while I also grow tired of the “eat and lift” crowd at times, there is a lot of truth to “eat to match your goals, work out regularly, strive to improve your lifts, challenge yourself, and let your genetics determine where the chips fall”.

i’ve never tried Waterburys program but the GVT worked amazingly on my legs! it probably helped elsewhere but my squats went through the roof when i tried it!

[quote]Protoculture wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Fair statement, but what does it matter? I wanted to change programs. Do you know anything about me? Do you have any knowledge as to what works for me or what is currently happening with me after 4 months on Waterbury’s program? It amazes me that if someone needs advice or assistance, one’s chances of receiving it through forums is moderate at best.

IF HOWEVER, you need useless, wise ass comments, people will come from all over the world. I mean for god’s sake…I simply ask a question about tempo and every d@%#*! bag with nothing to do has to purge there personal frustration with the rest of the world that can’t just simplify it down to ‘just lift and eat’. Ridiculous.

While I agree there is an inordinate amount of posters desperately trying to sound hardcore on this site their cries to “eat and lift” do serve a purpose.

How so? There are big bucks to be made in the fitness industry, so if they can somehow convince you need their products to succeed (programs, equipment, etc…) the better off they will be (financially). Minor issues are blown out of proportion when their have a financial interest in it.

Every seller is pulling you in their direction until you don’t know if you are coming or going.

This is where the “eat and lift” crowd shine. They help bring the pendulum back to the center. Is everything the sellers selling useless? No, but in order to differentiate themselves from their competitors they had to make some pretty wild claims. Claims that most people want to believe because it’s more more pleasant than reality.

By “dumbing” things down to “eat and lift” it makes you realize that most things are not that important.

For example: If you’re not eating enough calories and you do GVT and follow the tempo - what gains do you expect to make in mass?

Now lets assume you were eating a calorie surplus, did GVT, but didn’t follow the tempo recommendation - what kind of gains do you expect to make?

The answer should be clear. The second option would give the best results in mass.

Of course you might ask what kind of results you’d make if you ate a surplus, and followed GVT exactly as written (with tempo recommendations)?

Who knows if you’d get the exact same results. With the tempo you’d have to use lighter weights, but you’d have longer TUT. Without the tempo you’d use heavier weights which increases tension.

Ultimately if you really bust your ass either way I don’t think it will make much of a difference. Certainly not enough for it to make you doubt your current routine.

So while I also grow tired of the “eat and lift” crowd at times, there is a lot of truth to “eat to match your goals, work out regularly, strive to improve your lifts, challenge yourself, and let your genetics determine where the chips fall”.

[/quote]

Thank you, sheesh. If a rep cadence question is keeping you from going to the gym you need a serious kick in the shin.

not to mention getting through 10 hard sets of 10 on squats is an experience in itself!

I get tired of the “eat and lift” responses too. Especially with the wisecracks along the lines of “if you spent more time training instead of theorizing…etc…”.

What is the purpose of a forum then? As if taking the time to visit T-Nation and posting some questions would keep you from going to the gym.
Healthy curiosity is part of the motivation to train.

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Yup. if the program has been giving you some good gains, it makes perfect sense to switch to something else, simply for the sake of changing things up.

Yes indeedy.

pikehunter wrote:
I have been training for 4 months using the routines suggested in Waterbury’s Huge in a Hurry with good success, but I am in need of a change.

[/quote]

Yep brah, 'coz sometimes you just get bored of progression and need variety. Getting stronger can make you live less.

Seriously to the OP, why do you NEED to change if you are indeed progressing?

If he feels the need to change up his routine, despite the fact he is making “good gains” on his current one, I don’t see the big deal. He changes things up, makes the workout out more fun for him.

[quote]Teledin wrote:
If he feels the need to change up his routine, despite the fact he is making “good gains” on his current one, I don’t see the big deal. He changes things up, makes the workout out more fun for him.[/quote]

If stagnation and slowing things down is no big deal for him that’s ok.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
If stagnation and slowing things down is no big deal for him that’s ok.[/quote]

A possibility…though nothing to suggest that changing the routine will cause him to stagnate.