Guy Bullshitting Me about these Exercises being Bad?

Hazza1989 · April 5, 2009, 2:52pm

He said the following:

I’m not fond of the volume, you are doing 10 working sets on chest? very overkill

you only need 5-6 max working sets per bodypart, if you can do more - you aren’t working hard enough

and I was going to mention earlier, but machines aren’t ‘bad’

they have a purpose, and long as you understand that… you can use them to your advantage.

Also, volume by itself isn’t bad … long as it hits the muscle different

i.e. don’t bother doing chins and pulldowns [esp if the grip was the same for both]

much better for overall development, to do say chins and rows

also… if you are going to do back/chest same day, few things to bear in mind

do chest exercise, then back, then return to chest exercise

this will keep your workouts shorter, and working opposing muscle makes the muscle itself stronger

so whilst you are recovering from chest, do a set for back, then do your 2nd set for chest, etc …

also, I’d scrap the Flat if you are interested in shoulder health/overall development

Flat is the only ‘staple’ that most people who have been at it a while, will agree is most deffo over-rated and puts your body in a compromising situation, moreso than overhead pressing ever will.

I can’t remember the technical details, but do a search on decent sites, like t-nation etc…

closed chain movements i.e. dips, are best for shoulder health.
why are you dedicating a day to arms? and shoving back and legs on same day?

FYI DB incline curls, assuming these are done seated on a bench? if so, these are probs THE worst bicep movement for your shoulders

the technical bit;

“The proximal tendon of the long head of the biceps is one of the most commonly injured structures of the shoulder joint. It’s highly susceptible to overuse and even rupture if the degeneration is allowed to proceed. Given the long head of the biceps’ interaction with the highly important glenoid labrum, you want to be very careful to avoid irritating this tendon. When you take your elbow and shoulder into full extension simultaneously, you lengthen the long head of the biceps. Now, put yourself in the incline curl position, and you turn that shoulder extension into hyperextension. Tendons with a history of trauma don’t typically like to be taken to extremes, especially under load.”

Please can someone give me some info to get this idiot to shut up (technical preferably). He is an absolute buffoon.

G87 · April 5, 2009, 8:12am

T-Nation is not your personal army.

Free2Be · April 5, 2009, 1:07pm

A lot of it has some merit.

Goodfellow · April 5, 2009, 9:12am

What he said seems to be pretty common knowledge…

Whats your problem? And how the fuck are you training legs/back on the same day?

Tcampbell · April 5, 2009, 9:18am

Pretty much all his said has a basis and a good one at that. I wouldn’t get him to shut up, I would start listening to him and see how it works for you.

Hazza1989 · April 5, 2009, 9:17am

So…flat DB benching is going to kill my shoulders (which are fine btw), and incline DB curls are going to damage by bicep tendon???

Tcampbell · April 5, 2009, 9:25am

[quote]Hazza1989 wrote:
So…flat DB benching is going to kill my shoulders (which are fine btw), and incline DB curls are going to damage by bicep tendon???

[/quote]

Focusing on any one movement over time will be hard on your body in that way. But then again, if done right I see no problem with Flat DB benching, but as often is the case it isn’t done right.

“why are you dedicating a day to arms? and shoving back and legs on same day?” - I often wonder the same thing with many people I see.

Other coaches have also mentioned watching the incline DB curls as they are “hard on the shoulders”.

LS87 · April 5, 2009, 9:20am

most of it is correcto

legs and back same day
separate day for arms huh…

SLAP!!!

Hazza1989 · April 5, 2009, 10:07am

Well, he knew nothing about my program. But anyway, what are the safest bicep exercises then, other than strict BB curls standing?

LS87 · April 5, 2009, 10:18am

IMO seated decline curls arent that bad
esp. when using a hammer grip,
just build the decline slowly.

every exercise has a cost/benefit ratio.

close grip chins, underhand rows.
DB curl variations
double cable curls

stockzy · April 5, 2009, 10:29am

[quote]Hazza1989 wrote:
He said the following:

I’m not fond of the volume, you are doing 10 working sets on chest? very overkill[/quote]

You need to build your own individual tolerence for volume so this may be true, maybe not for you. Depends on your training age and ability to recover.

Say a guys is doing 3 exercises for chest, 4 sets each, it’s pretty normal for the first 2 to be well short of failure so i’d tend to agree but the operative word is “working sets” here

[quote]and I was going to mention earlier, but machines aren’t ‘bad’

they have a purpose, and long as you understand that… you can use them to your advantage.[/quote]

Agree

[quote]Also, volume by itself isn’t bad … long as it hits the muscle different

i.e. don’t bother doing chins and pulldowns [esp if the grip was the same for both

much better for overall development, to do say chins and rows[/quote]

Absolutely! Angle of penation is everything.

[quote]also… if you are going to do back/chest same day, few things to bear in mind

do chest exercise, then back, then return to chest exercise

this will keep your workouts shorter, and working opposing muscle makes the muscle itself stronger

so whilst you are recovering from chest, do a set for back, then do your 2nd set for chest, etc …[/quote]

Is very smart. Chest set, rest 60 secs, back set (40secs tut)rest 60 secs. By the time your up for chest again your chest has rested 2 mins 40 secs yet your heart has only rested 1 so is a good way to crank up the intensity of your workouts. Recipricol inhibition also comes into play here and some coaches claim actually makes you stronger. But once again “if you have the time” you may enjoy doing straight sets.

[quote]also, I’d scrap the Flat if you are interested in shoulder health/overall development

Flat is the only ‘staple’ that most people who have been at it a while, will agree is most deffo over-rated and puts your body in a compromising situation, moreso than overhead pressing ever will.[/quote]

Flat barbell presses are definately over rated for chest development in a bodybuilding sense, great for shoulders and tri’s though. DB’s allow greater range of motion and therefore are a better exercise to “develop” your chest in regards to bodybuilding purposes.

As a strenth exercise, the bench is one of the big three.

[quote]I can’t remember the technical details, but do a search on decent sites, like T-Nation etc…

closed chain movements i.e. dips, are best for shoulder health.[/quote]

A very high profile coach once gave me a “strike” for mentioning this concept. Said it was a bumfuck idea and i got the impression he was going to throw me out a window, yet physio’s and PT"s are all about open/closed chains so it depends who you talk to.

Couldn’t agree more. Thats a rookie move.

[quote]FYI DB incline curls, assuming these are done seated on a bench? if so, these are probs THE worst bicep movement for your shoulders

the technical bit;

“The proximal tendon of the long head of the biceps is one of the most commonly injured structures of the shoulder joint. It’s highly susceptible to overuse and even rupture if the degeneration is allowed to proceed. Given the long head of the biceps’ interaction with the highly important glenoid labrum, you want to be very careful to avoid irritating this tendon. When you take your elbow and shoulder into full extension simultaneously, you lengthen the long head of the biceps. Now, put yourself in the incline curl position, and you turn that shoulder extension into hyperextension. Tendons with a history of trauma don’t typically like to be taken to extremes, especially under load.”[/quote]

Excellent advice. Some of the coaches here say the same thing. Once again though the operative words are “if you have had a history of shoulder trauma” then there are smarter choices. If you haven’t had a history of shoulder problems and can get into the right position comfortbly for this exercise see how they go.

As for best bicep exercises, everything works but only for a while. Rotating once you’ve adapted is key, but every body adapts differently depending on many factors so again this is individual.

He didn’t know anything about your program?
Who wrote your program? Is it supposed to be famous?

Mate, You sound new to training.and he sounds like he’s trying to help you. Just keep an open mind. If you get better results with his methods then he’s done his job right?

taleb · April 5, 2009, 5:42pm

OMG, way to be a pussy

if you have something to say to me, say it to my face

BTW, I’m the ‘guy bullshitting him’

and he has missed out certain aspects;

this was the routine he intially posted;

==========================

I have been lifting now for just over a month. I have a home gym currently, but will be at a commercial one from this October when I am at Durham.

I am doing weights for three main reasons:

a) To keep fit
b) To look good
c) To give me the power and strength I will need for American football and regular football.

My split will be as follows:

Day 1:

Flat DB bench x 4 sets
Incline DB bench x 4 sets
Chest dips x 3 sets

Day 2:

BB bicep curl x 3 sets
DB incline curls x 3 sets
21’s x 3 sets

CGBP x 3 sets
Tricep dips x 4 sets
kickbacks x 4 sets

Day 3:

Deadlifts x 3 sets
Squats x 4 sets
Leg press x 3 sets (high reps to end on a pump)

All reps will be kept in a 6-10 range as I have completed my 5x5 over the last month or so.

My current lifts are:

3 reps on 88kg BB bench, 1 rep max is 92.5kg.
10 reps on 32kg dumbbells
10 reps on 40kg BB curl
6 reps on 135kg squats
3 reps on 160kg deads

Obviously deads and squats are better than my upperbody lifts by a mile as I did those 6 months prior to my upper body as I worked on legs and core for my football (foolish I know). Other than those exericses, I will be doing external/internal rotations (banded) for my Rotator cuffs, and the Diesel shoulder prehab stretches/exercises to maintain shoulder health and prevent any injuries from occurring.

===================

one of his responses to someone else;

==============================

That’s cool, but I feel my anterior delts and posterior delts can be well balanced from benching and DB rows and rows in general. Meanwhile by RC’s are stronger than ever at the moment due to rotations and scapular exercises. I’m not entirely sure why cleans and military/shoulder presses are absolutely necessary for building shoulder muscles and playing football. are you seriously telling me I can not build a healthy shoulder without shoulder presses/cleans, which, by the way my uncle (who has been a sports doctor and a weight lifter for over 25/30 years has warned me against). Also, how can you say good form will eliminate bio-mechanical stress? For example, what ever form someone uses for upright rows, they will be storing up issues with regards to impingement of the RC down the line.

============================

his first logged session ;

Chest session/ back session

Flat DB: warm up sets: 20 x 10, 25kg x 10, 28kg x 12
: Working sets: 32kg x 10, 32kg x 8, 32kg x 6, 30kg x 12.

Incline DB: 30kg x 8, 30kg x 7, 30kg x 5, 28kg x 7, 28kg x 5

Chest dips: too tired, my arms and chest were absolutely smashed as I have just changed the volume, and only just started using DB’s again. I reckon I could probably have done 35kg DB’s quite easily if I just had the correct type of DB. At the moment I am using the bloody adjustable dumbbells and have these massive 10kg plates on both sides, which make it very awkward to rest on the knee and kick up. I am investing in some rubber coated DB’s soon.

Chin ups: 4 sets (body weighted at the moment). I got 10, 8, 8, 7. Were really hard, could feel it on my lats especially

Lat pull downs: 70kg x 8, 80 x 6, 80 x 5.

External rotations with a band to finish, and some dynamic stretches to keep the shoulders nice and happy.

==================================

& I based my answers to him, based up on these [and a bit more not posted]

I mean, for someone who has a very strong fascination for not messing up his shoulder, flat bench isn’t exactly known [even with perfect form] to be the best, when you aren’t even powerlifting and you HAVE to do it

as for the biceps bit, again … I didn’t say, you’ll rip your tendon, just there are safer exercises out there, esp for someone who is SO concerned about his shoulder health

and I even pasted words from Eric Cressey re: the incline curls.

Dude, I’ve told you before on the other forum STOP BEING SUCH A KNOW-IT-ALL esp when you’ve barely started training and have no real experience.

G87 · April 5, 2009, 5:45pm

LMFAO

grabs popcorn

supabeast · April 5, 2009, 5:57pm

Stop wasting time arguing with people because they don’t parrot exactly what you happen to have read online and spend more time lifting.

Professor_X · April 5, 2009, 8:11pm

[quote]supabeast wrote:
Stop wasting time arguing with people because they don’t parrot exactly what you happen to have read online and spend more time lifting.[/quote]

I am betting that attitude is rampant on this site with newbies.

They don’t understand they are missing out by not grasping the concept that there are very few absolutes in bodybuilding. What works for one may not work for someone else and if you ask 5 different big guys why/how they train, you will get 5 different responses that may be similar in some ways but differ in others.

A smart man would listen to all, find what is in common and learn what works for them through trial and error.

The bad thing is, many of these guys aren’t anywhere near as smart as they think they are.

MEYMZ · April 5, 2009, 9:17pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
supabeast wrote:
Stop wasting time arguing with people because they don’t parrot exactly what you happen to have read online and spend more time lifting.

I am betting that attitude is rampant on this site with newbies.

They don’t understand they are missing out by not grasping the concept that there are very few absolutes in bodybuilding. What works for one may not work for someone else and if you ask 5 different big guys why/how they train, you will get 5 different responses that may be similar in some ways but differ in others.

A smart man would listen to all, find what is in common and learn what works for them through trial and error.

The bad thing is, many of these guys aren’t anywhere near as smart as they think they are.[/quote]

The net: 90% of people is hardcore, has ‘respectable’ stats and dominates virtually every concept on weightlifting, nutrition, supps, etc…

The average gym: 90% of the people you see doesn’t look worked, thinks a 135lb bench press is hardcore, stares at you as if you were some strange bug when you load the bar with more than 2 plates on the squat, and asks you for fast tips to get jacked.

Something must be worng, or there must be some phenomenom associated with all advanced lifters being attracted to the net.

tveddy · April 5, 2009, 9:25pm

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Professor X wrote:
supabeast wrote:
Stop wasting time arguing with people because they don’t parrot exactly what you happen to have read online and spend more time lifting.

I am betting that attitude is rampant on this site with newbies.

They don’t understand they are missing out by not grasping the concept that there are very few absolutes in bodybuilding. What works for one may not work for someone else and if you ask 5 different big guys why/how they train, you will get 5 different responses that may be similar in some ways but differ in others.

A smart man would listen to all, find what is in common and learn what works for them through trial and error.

The bad thing is, many of these guys aren’t anywhere near as smart as they think they are.

The net: 90% of people is hardcore, has ‘respectable’ stats and dominates virtually every concept on weightlifting, nutrition, supps, etc…

The average gym: 90% of the people you see doesn’t look worked, thinks a 135lb bench press is hardcore, stares at you as if you were some strange bug when you load the bar with more than 2 plates on the squat, and asks you for fast tips to get jacked.

Something must be worng, or there must be some phenomenom associated with all advanced lifters being attracted to the net.[/quote]

I believe that your study was confounded by the fact that most meatheads are also computer nerds

acelement · April 5, 2009, 9:30pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
supabeast wrote:
Stop wasting time arguing with people because they don’t parrot exactly what you happen to have read online and spend more time lifting.

I am betting that attitude is rampant on this site with newbies.

They don’t understand they are missing out by not grasping the concept that there are very few absolutes in bodybuilding. What works for one may not work for someone else and if you ask 5 different big guys why/how they train, you will get 5 different responses that may be similar in some ways but differ in others.

A smart man would listen to all, find what is in common and learn what works for them through trial and error.

The bad thing is, many of these guys aren’t anywhere near as smart as they think they are.[/quote]

In my journey I learned that high volume works well for me. It’s great when you gather enough knowledge to start knowing what works for your body. Unfortunately, I’m only going to be in grad school for 2 more months, and then I don’t know where I’m going to find the time to fit in all of that volume…

So yeah, self discovery is totally underrated amongst newbies, and should be the #1 priority when trying to build a base, or else you’re just wasting your time.

MEYMZ · April 5, 2009, 9:31pm

[quote]tveddy wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
Professor X wrote:
supabeast wrote:
Stop wasting time arguing with people because they don’t parrot exactly what you happen to have read online and spend more time lifting.