Gut Health! Sort of a Log

Any natural food store should have them. I purchased mine at the local store for $10. Planetary Herbs Digestive Grape Bitters. There are some non-alcoholic ones like swedish bitters as well (also called sweetish bitters) or floradix is another option. The instructions on most of these is to just add it to water and take it like a shot.

From what I’ve read you don’t need to use nearly that much- only take 1/2 dropper worth and put in mouth until you start to taste the bitterness. That will stimulate the vagus nerve. You could also try just finding some of the herbs used in powder form and sucking on the powder for a little bit.

[quote]atg410 wrote:
No worries, I’ll check it out. I asked more out of curiosity than any thing else - these are issues that I’m becoming increasingly fascinated by, especially as they relate to my own well being. In the past year I’ve started doing a lot of Chinese internal martial arts which place a significant emphasis on the importance of liver health - and at the same time I’m finding more and more links between liver health and other important issues on the bio-molecular side of things. Read an article recently about insulin resistance that makes the claim that the liver should be viewed as a primary endocrine organ. All just very interesting. I’ll check out that other forum for sure. [/quote]

I agree with the liver being an important endocrine organ. You have to remember all the shit we take- food, supplements, alcohol, pain killers, etc are all processed through the liver. That bad boy takes a beating and can easily get over-run. If you want to try some rather “off the wall” stuff, look up liver cleanse on that site. You’ve gotta make a weird concoction and get into certain bodily positions and nap at certain times but supposedly you can end up dumping lots of bile gall stones and even things called liver flukes (if you want to look those up). I tried it with maybe 80% effort but didn’t get any real results. I figure I’ve cut out alcohol for the time being and added in the bitters while reducing my supplements to just stuff I need for GI/adrenal support so I’m trying to minimize liver impact

Cool thread. Will follow.

I know little about digestive enzyme supplements, bitters or dietary modulation of gastric acid, but I have spent some time in a lab, classroom and library for micro-related malarkey. If anyone has any questions about the intestinal microbiome or pre-, pro- or synbiotics, I’m game.

[quote]anonym wrote:
Cool thread. Will follow.

I know little about digestive enzyme supplements, bitters or dietary modulation of gastric acid, but I have spent some time in a lab, classroom and library for micro-related malarkey. If anyone has any questions about the intestinal microbiome or pre-, pro- or synbiotics, I’m game.[/quote]

nice to have an educated gentleman like yourself aboard!

Do you know anything about the efficiency of probiotic supplements?

Or anything about the benefits of prebiotic fibre like inulin?

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
nice to have an educated gentleman like yourself aboard![/quote]

Most interesting thread on T-Nation right now, so I’m happy to be here.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
Do you know anything about the efficiency of probiotic supplements?[/quote]

How would you define probiotic efficiency?

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
Or anything about the benefits of prebiotic fibre like inulin?[/quote]

For those who don’t know, a prebiotic is defined as a food which is nondigestable (to us) but fermentable (to bacteria) that functions to selectively stimulate the growth or activity of various bacterial species to better our health. So, while probiotics function as an exogenous means of optimizing the enteric microbiome, prebiotics function to allow us to endogenously manipulate the inhabitants of our GI tract.

The earliest prebiotic most of us are exposed to comes from our mother’s tittays as something called “human milk oligosaccharides” (HMOs); this prebiotic serves to induce the growth of beneficial colonizers (chiefly) bifidobacteria (hence the nickname “bifidus factor”), while simultaneously conferring anti-infective benefits through allowing bifidobacteria to crowd out potential pathogens and (theoretically, at least), inhibiting the adhesion of pathogenic bacteria to cell surfaces (thought to result from a reported similarity of HMOs to cell surface carbohydrates). The inverse relationship between bifidobacteria and C. difficile colonization, and the tentative causal association speculated to exist between the former organism and atopy, makes some believe HMOs may indirectly function as a key factor in immune system modulation and development.

But, that’s a very complicated subject with a lot of spotty evidence.

The rest of us (I think) need to rely on other types of prebiotics. These include fructo-, galacto- and soy-oligosaccharides (FOS, GOS and SOS), inulin and lactulose and are found in things like chicory root, soybeans, garlic, onions, wheat and bran.

Benefits of these things are believed to include: alteration of intestinal pH to inhibit the growth of pathogenic bacteria, increased bioavailability of various minerals, beneficial modulation of blood lipids (reduced total cholesterol and triglycerides), improved bowel transit times, reduced bacterial translocation (movement of bacteria outside of the GI tract), increased production of short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), cancer prevention, weight regulation and immune system modulation.

The strength of the evidence for these claims seems to depend on the type/amount of prebiotic used and how willing one is to (sometimes often) extrapolate these benefits to humans from, say, murine models.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:
Cool thread. Will follow.

I know little about digestive enzyme supplements, bitters or dietary modulation of gastric acid, but I have spent some time in a lab, classroom and library for micro-related malarkey. If anyone has any questions about the intestinal microbiome or pre-, pro- or synbiotics, I’m game.[/quote]

nice to have an educated gentleman like yourself aboard!

Do you know anything about the efficiency of probiotic supplements?

Or anything about the benefits of prebiotic fibre like inulin?[/quote]
X2 wondered when anonym was going to show up.Spill the knowledge buddy.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
Any natural food store should have them. I purchased mine at the local store for $10. Planetary Herbs Digestive Grape Bitters. There are some non-alcoholic ones like swedish bitters as well (also called sweetish bitters) or floradix is another option. The instructions on most of these is to just add it to water and take it like a shot.

From what I’ve read you don’t need to use nearly that much- only take 1/2 dropper worth and put in mouth until you start to taste the bitterness. That will stimulate the vagus nerve. You could also try just finding some of the herbs used in powder form and sucking on the powder for a little bit.

[quote]atg410 wrote:
No worries, I’ll check it out. I asked more out of curiosity than any thing else - these are issues that I’m becoming increasingly fascinated by, especially as they relate to my own well being. In the past year I’ve started doing a lot of Chinese internal martial arts which place a significant emphasis on the importance of liver health - and at the same time I’m finding more and more links between liver health and other important issues on the bio-molecular side of things. Read an article recently about insulin resistance that makes the claim that the liver should be viewed as a primary endocrine organ. All just very interesting. I’ll check out that other forum for sure. [/quote]

I agree with the liver being an important endocrine organ. You have to remember all the shit we take- food, supplements, alcohol, pain killers, etc are all processed through the liver. That bad boy takes a beating and can easily get over-run. If you want to try some rather “off the wall” stuff, look up liver cleanse on that site. You’ve gotta make a weird concoction and get into certain bodily positions and nap at certain times but supposedly you can end up dumping lots of bile gall stones and even things called liver flukes (if you want to look those up). I tried it with maybe 80% effort but didn’t get any real results. I figure I’ve cut out alcohol for the time being and added in the bitters while reducing my supplements to just stuff I need for GI/adrenal support so I’m trying to minimize liver impact[/quote]

Thanks for this,I’ll pick some up at my health food store tomorrow.Do you take just before your meal or meals.Any benefit to taking at other times of the day,once again thanks coolnatedawg.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/probiotics_3?id=4563957&pageNo=0#bottom

Two posts in, Bill Roberts explains how to increase the amount of servings you get out of your probiotic supplement.

This thread just gets better and better every time I check in, props to rds for getting this started.

Coolnatedawg: I just caught that you mentioned above that adrenal fatigue is a primary concern of yours - without taking this thread too far off topic would you care to outline what you’ve discovered on that front? I note again that many of the molecules that seem to play a supportive role in digestion, and liver support also show up in the adrenal support realm. I’m sure in some part that’s just about the body evolving to multi task with a certain set of tools, but I feel like it also speaks to the interconnected nature of these systems.

Anonym: I’ve never heard the term synbiotic before. A quick google search gives me the definition of a synergistic relationship between an organism and its prebiotic substrate, would this suggest that a variety of prebiotics might be necessary to insure colonization by a diverse group of beneficial gut flora?

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/probiotics_3?id=4563957&pageNo=0#bottom

Two posts in, Bill Roberts explains how to increase the amount of servings you get out of your probiotic supplement. [/quote]

I wonder if that trick could be done with a nut or seed milk - I’m the least lactose intolerant in a very lactose intolerant house hold, but we usually have almond milk or hemp milk or something like that around.

[quote]jppage wrote:

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
Any natural food store should have them. I purchased mine at the local store for $10. Planetary Herbs Digestive Grape Bitters. There are some non-alcoholic ones like swedish bitters as well (also called sweetish bitters) or floradix is another option. The instructions on most of these is to just add it to water and take it like a shot.

From what I’ve read you don’t need to use nearly that much- only take 1/2 dropper worth and put in mouth until you start to taste the bitterness. That will stimulate the vagus nerve. You could also try just finding some of the herbs used in powder form and sucking on the powder for a little bit.

[quote]atg410 wrote:
No worries, I’ll check it out. I asked more out of curiosity than any thing else - these are issues that I’m becoming increasingly fascinated by, especially as they relate to my own well being. In the past year I’ve started doing a lot of Chinese internal martial arts which place a significant emphasis on the importance of liver health - and at the same time I’m finding more and more links between liver health and other important issues on the bio-molecular side of things. Read an article recently about insulin resistance that makes the claim that the liver should be viewed as a primary endocrine organ. All just very interesting. I’ll check out that other forum for sure. [/quote]

I agree with the liver being an important endocrine organ. You have to remember all the shit we take- food, supplements, alcohol, pain killers, etc are all processed through the liver. That bad boy takes a beating and can easily get over-run. If you want to try some rather “off the wall” stuff, look up liver cleanse on that site. You’ve gotta make a weird concoction and get into certain bodily positions and nap at certain times but supposedly you can end up dumping lots of bile gall stones and even things called liver flukes (if you want to look those up). I tried it with maybe 80% effort but didn’t get any real results. I figure I’ve cut out alcohol for the time being and added in the bitters while reducing my supplements to just stuff I need for GI/adrenal support so I’m trying to minimize liver impact[/quote]

Thanks for this,I’ll pick some up at my health food store tomorrow.Do you take just before your meal or meals.Any benefit to taking at other times of the day,once again thanks coolnatedawg.[/quote]
Found some info on timing etc.so no need to respond on this coolnatedawg.

thanks for the run down on prebiotics! I recently purchased some inulin powder and have been taking it with meals. Makes me gassier than a hot air balloon but I think that’s just my body adjusting. Kind of annoying having to do sneaky stealth farts in the gym

[quote]anonym wrote:
How would you define probiotic efficiency?
[/quote]

there’s a lot of conflicting info as to whether or not probiotics in pill form actually find their way to your gut flora, I was wondering if you had a take on it?

[quote]anonym wrote:
The rest of us (I think) need to rely on other types of prebiotics. These include fructo-, galacto- and soy-oligosaccharides (FOS, GOS and SOS), inulin and lactulose and are found in things like chicory root, soybeans, garlic, onions, wheat and bran.

Benefits of these things are believed to include: alteration of intestinal pH to inhibit the growth of pathogenic bacteria, increased bioavailability of various minerals, beneficial modulation of blood lipids (reduced total cholesterol and triglycerides), improved bowel transit times, reduced bacterial translocation (movement of bacteria outside of the GI tract), increased production of short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), cancer prevention, weight regulation and immune system modulation.

The strength of the evidence for these claims seems to depend on the type/amount of prebiotic used and how willing one is to (sometimes often) extrapolate these benefits to humans from, say, murine models.[/quote]

I haven’t put much effort into the use of FOS/GOS/SOS but I was curious to see wheat mentioned from multiple different sources. My understanding was that wheat particularly was a cause for a lot of concern even in those that don’t suffer from severe symptoms of gluten intolerance. Supposedly everyone’s GI tract becomes inflammed due to wheat? I also was under the impression that yeast/fungus such as candida thrived on wheat…? How can one item that I am told to avoid because it feeds the bad stuff also be told to eat because it feeds the good stuff? I will avoid it either way due to my personal issues with it but I’m curious

Also-what are your thoughts on timing of probiotic? I was under the impression that you took them on an empty stomach so I take just before bed but they end up going down with a couple other supplements (including iodine) which may hurt the result. But some studies say to take on a full stomach as that reduces the pH of the stomach and helps them to survive the trek. And what are your thoughts on taking a probiotic pill and opening it, pouring it onto pasteurized milk, and creating a fermented milk that way after 24-36 hours? I’m debating on trying that as my raw milk source is disappearing.

rds- where did you get the inulin powder?

[quote]jppage wrote:
Thanks for this,I’ll pick some up at my health food store tomorrow.Do you take just before your meal or meals.Any benefit to taking at other times of the day,once again thanks coolnatedawg.[/quote]

I’ve been taking about 10-15 minutes before and immediately after. I am using it before to stimulate HCL production and using it after to see if I can add more HCL (not sure if that’s how it would actually work) and work on cleansing the liver. If you take it like I was saying, just a 1/2 dropper at a time, you’ll have plenty of “servings” for your dollar so playign with it a bit like this isn’t such a big deal. 1 more thing, eventually the bitter taste will start to wear off on you due to the phasic receptors on your tongue but as long as you still make sure to swish a little bit you will still be activating the vagus nerve

[quote]atg410 wrote:
Coolnatedawg: I just caught that you mentioned above that adrenal fatigue is a primary concern of yours - without taking this thread too far off topic would you care to outline what you’ve discovered on that front? I note again that many of the molecules that seem to play a supportive role in digestion, and liver support also show up in the adrenal support realm. I’m sure in some part that’s just about the body evolving to multi task with a certain set of tools, but I feel like it also speaks to the interconnected nature of these systems.
[/quote]

I suffer a lot of adrenal fatigue like symptoms and after doing the pupil dilation test was pretty confident that I am at a possible advanced degree of fatigue. Conveniently, TODAY I am collecting 4 samples of saliva to send off for a cortisol evaluation (ASI- Adrenal Stress Index) to see where I’m at and then with that I will focus on a more concentrated recovery. The major supps I am using for adrenal fatigue are also beneficial for gut health. I am using a B100-complex, B12, Vitamin C, D3, iodine, celtic sea salt (throughout the day), and the digestive products. Like I said, I think they go hand in hand as one is the chicken and one is the egg. I haven’t had digestive problems but for the last 5-6 years but I’ve been dealing with other issues (like low T symptoms which are very synonomous with adrenal fatigue symptoms) since I was a teenager.

Once I get the results I plan on adding in an adaptogen such as licorice root or aswaganda which have been shown to help the body find a more “normal” homeostasis point. I figured I would wait to try these until AFTER the ASI. If they don’t work, I may look into glandulars such as adrenal cortex extract but not adrenal medulla which extract contains adrenaline producing substances. If that doesn’t work then it’s possible I may need actual medication but I’m hoping to avoid that.

I’ll be honest with you though, this is only a recent focus to my health in that I’ve looked to every other option under the sun before trying this so I’m still learning.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
rds- where did you get the inulin powder?[/quote]

from a website I can’t really name or link to unfortunately. It’s one of the first companies to come up if you google inulin.

so I got me some of those HCL pills today. Got the ones with pepsin as per Chris Kesser’s recommendation. Will try that thing with the warming sensation in your stomach, see what happens.

Some advocate going a couple days at each pill dose before bumping it up. I went aggressively and did after every 2 meals I would change. 6 gave me a “weird” feeling.

actually no, patience grasshopper. I’ll start just taking two…

not getting the burny feeling from 2 HCL pills so I’ll go up to three tomorrow

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
My understanding was that wheat particularly was a cause for a lot of concern even in those that don’t suffer from severe symptoms of gluten intolerance. Supposedly everyone’s GI tract becomes inflammed due to wheat?[/quote]

Honestly, I haven’t seen much of any compelling evidence to suggest that anything more substantial than a minority of the population has genuine issues with wheat.

If you have any research showing otherwise, I’d be interested in taking a look. This discussion has been brought up on occasion around these parts and I never found the argument to be very strong.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
I also was under the impression that yeast/fungus such as candida thrived on wheat…? How can one item that I am told to avoid because it feeds the bad stuff also be told to eat because it feeds the good stuff?[/quote]

Well, in healthy individuals, Candida are normal residents and generally aren’t seen to cause problems more severe than vaginitis or diaper rash. However, they ARE known to cause issues from time to time and can vacillate between commensal and pathogenic phenotypes by virtue of certain phase-specific genes that allow them to opportunistically adapt to their environment.

Candidiasis is typically the result of more than just wheat intake. FOr example, superficial candida infections (like thrush, aka nasty tongue) is often seen in newborns, children receiving steroids or after intensive antibiotic therapy, while candida vaginitis is commonly observed in women who are diabetic, pregnant or on oral contraceptives.

So, there candida overgrowth can manifest in various areas, but in the GI tract it is commonly observed to result from things like improper diet, disease states (e.g., acute renal failure), medications (e.g., corticosteroids), impaired immune function, personal hygiene and other factors that disturb the normal flora (e.g., parenteral nutrition or stress).

But, keeping in mind the various risk factors, one of the best ways to prevent this condition is keeping your GI bacteria in top shape because they work to keep fungi from running amok. Lactobacilli, for example, are seen to help prevent overgrowth by producing lactic and acetic acids as well as antifungal substances. They also compete with Candida for adherence to the GI mucosa and upregulate the production of protective mucins.

Bifidobacteria have been seen to stimulate the production of IgA and IgG antibodies as well as reduce fungal dissemination and growth. They may also even positively modulate the inflammatory response to infection.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
Also-what are your thoughts on timing of probiotic? I was under the impression that you took them on an empty stomach so I take just before bed but they end up going down with a couple other supplements (including iodine) which may hurt the result. But some studies say to take on a full stomach as that reduces the pH of the stomach and helps them to survive the trek.[/quote]

Conventional wisdom is to take them on an empty stomach to decrease their exposure to gastric acid. Others, as you say, claim it is best to take them on a full stomach due to the beneficial alteration in pH. At least one study seems to indicate that taking them just before or during a meal (with some fat) is best:

I mean, people have done just fine eating fermented foods well before the isolation of the beneficial bacteria. However, the type and quantity of the species in you choose to supplement with will impact this (Lactobacilli seem to fare better than Bifidos, for example).

FWIW, newer, fancier supplements (e.g., Theralac) claim to have improved encapsulation technologies which obviate this concern.

Unless you wanna splurge on the latest and greatest, it might be best to just go with MOther Nature and see how that pans out. She typically knows best with these sorts of things.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
And what are your thoughts on taking a probiotic pill and opening it, pouring it onto pasteurized milk, and creating a fermented milk that way after 24-36 hours? I’m debating on trying that as my raw milk source is disappearing.[/quote]

Seems like an easy enough way to stretch your wallet. Certainly, the most common probiotics will likely fare well with that sort of thing (Lactobacilli grow well in milk while the bifidobacterium common in infants – infantis, adolescentis, longum, brevi – have been said to be better suited for that medium than others).

Note that over-acidification may be of concern here; L/ bulgaricus is notorious for this and would explain why it is commonly excluded from starter cultures. Things like heat shock, decreasing storage temperature and the addition of whey protein (at least, to yogurt) are thought to additionally reduce the risk of excess acidification.

While most Lactobacilli species are more acid-tolerant than Bifidobacterium, it is still strain=dependent. As well, consideration must be given to the strains cultured to evaluate any competition in growth (to note risk facts like bacteriocin, hydrogen peroxide or organic acid production) as well as their storage viability. You can probably get an easy enough idea from scoping out what bacteria are typically included in common starter culture kits.

I really don’t know too much about culturing probiotics. I’ll do some reading on it and follow up a little later.