T Nation

Gut Health! Sort of a Log

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

apparently that can also mean that you’re not drinking enough water. Might be something to consider.

As a slight aside regarding your mate: Remember when Bluetooth for phones first came out? A friend of mine would play a game where he would scan for other Bluetooth devices active in the pub we were in and send them a request for a video download. Every now and then a poor sap would accept and he’d send them some HORRIFIC pornography, I mean really unspeakable stuff. You’d be sitting in the pub and some girl at another table would scream and he’d be like “ah, she must’ve got the video.” It was great fun.[/quote]

Nah I drink loads of water: I shoot for a gallon and always get over 3L. Funny thing is, I was back home last week and my diet was far from optimal, but my bowels were more regular. I had Weetabix for breakfast every day so maybe that’s the key…

I do remember when Bluetooth came out, but I never had the bottle to send anything like that!

[quote]atg410 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]atg410 wrote:
Without posting product specifics the one that I use is made up of two strains each of acidophilus and bifidobacterium in equal measure. The company provides lab tested assurance of 9 billion total CFU (colony forming units) per gram. A 60 gram tub runs about US $30, and should be refrigerated once opened ( a lot of places will even ship it with an ice pack).

I believe there is a capsule available as well with comparable dosing, but I take enough caps from other sups that I prefer something I can just mix in to a glass of water. I typically take 1 gram daily at this point, but if I do have a serious reversal in gut health symptoms I’ll go up to 3 for a few days. It does contain a “fructo-oligo-saccharide” at 450mg per gram, so probably something like inulin as a base for the bugs.

I’ve taken cheaper probiotics before and never noticed an improvement in GI health, this one seems to do the trick. [/quote]

I think you could probably get away with naming the product, as far as I’m aware Biotest doesn’t make a probiotic so there’d not be a conflict of interest. I could be wrong about that though…[/quote]

Yeah, I won’t post a link since any page that sells it is going to sell stuff that could be seen as competing, but the brand I use is Genestra HMF powder. They make a few other varients, mostly with additional prebiotics that I haven’t tried - but I swear by their basic probiotic.
[/quote]

excellent! Thanks for that. Hot dog it’s expensive though

EDIT: oh actually it’s not so bad

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]atg410 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]atg410 wrote:
Without posting product specifics the one that I use is made up of two strains each of acidophilus and bifidobacterium in equal measure. The company provides lab tested assurance of 9 billion total CFU (colony forming units) per gram. A 60 gram tub runs about US $30, and should be refrigerated once opened ( a lot of places will even ship it with an ice pack).

I believe there is a capsule available as well with comparable dosing, but I take enough caps from other sups that I prefer something I can just mix in to a glass of water. I typically take 1 gram daily at this point, but if I do have a serious reversal in gut health symptoms I’ll go up to 3 for a few days. It does contain a “fructo-oligo-saccharide” at 450mg per gram, so probably something like inulin as a base for the bugs.

I’ve taken cheaper probiotics before and never noticed an improvement in GI health, this one seems to do the trick. [/quote]

I think you could probably get away with naming the product, as far as I’m aware Biotest doesn’t make a probiotic so there’d not be a conflict of interest. I could be wrong about that though…[/quote]

Yeah, I won’t post a link since any page that sells it is going to sell stuff that could be seen as competing, but the brand I use is Genestra HMF powder. They make a few other varients, mostly with additional prebiotics that I haven’t tried - but I swear by their basic probiotic.
[/quote]

excellent! Thanks for that. Hot dog it’s expensive though

EDIT: oh actually it’s not so bad[/quote]

Yeah, it’s pricey to get loaded up on at say 3g daily, but once established at a gram a day or even 2, one tub should last for several weeks. There may even be cheaper alternatives out there that are just as good, but I trust this one.

copying and posting a response in the other thread in here just to keep it all in one place

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
RDS,

I too have been battling some digestive distress for quite a while now. It’s still a work in progress but A LOT of what I have read has lead me to what I’m using now.
-I would definitely continue with the glutamine as that has been show to expedite healing (I need to get my hands on some more).

  • Probiotics- make sure the kind you are using are refrigerated. if they are left out, they are dead (if not in an environment where they can flourish like raw dairy or the like)
    -I’ve read a lot of things, especially over on cure zone .com about NOT using digestive enzymes. I began by playing around with HCL to try and improve digestion as a lot of people are actually deficient in stomach acid and not afflicted with being hyper excreters. However, some would argue that by adding in HCL, you are essentially telling the body to stop producing its own (like adding exogenous T shuts down natural T if not assisted with hCG). Same thing was argued about digestive enzymes. The recommendation was actually to include (non-alcoholic) DIGESTIVE BITTERS and place a 1/2 dropper or some powder on the tongue until the bitter taste is realized- this will activate the Vagus nerve which stimulates the stomach to produce acid, the pancreas to produce it’s digestive enzymes, and even the liver to begin flushing. Trimethylglycine (TMG), aka betaine, is added in as it is a precursor to stomach acid that does not shut down natural production.

I’m still in the process of learning it all- dietary fumbles still mess me up a good bit but I know that using these things is already starting to help me reduce bloat. My current regime in case that is a cluster fuck is 500mg TMG 2x/day, bitters before/after every BIG meal with protein, PB8 probiotic at night, and I have been playing with fermented products a bit more. Like raw milk into clabber, sauerkraut, etc.

I hope you find something in there that is helpful or at least thought provoking.[/quote]

so nate, firstly, thanks for the detailed post! A couple of things jumped out at me:

-my probiotics are refrigerated, and were kept refrigerated in the shop so I’m confident in the quality.

-that’s really interesting about the digestive enzymes. I actually read somewhere that supplementing actually encourages your body to start producing more of its own enzymes over time. I will look further into that. What I was planning on doing was starting out using a high dose of digestive enzymes and lowering it over time, with a view to eventually cutting them out. I guess if I do cut them out and the old problems return that it is incorrect about them encouraging your body to produce its own.

-I’ll definitely check out those bitters though man, thanks very much for pointing those out to me.

can I ask, what sort of distress have you been dealing with?

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
-that’s really interesting about the digestive enzymes. I actually read somewhere that supplementing actually encourages your body to start producing more of its own enzymes over time. I will look further into that. What I was planning on doing was starting out using a high dose of digestive enzymes and lowering it over time, with a view to eventually cutting them out. I guess if I do cut them out and the old problems return that it is incorrect about them encouraging your body to produce its own.
[/quote]

I’m not sure about digestive enzymes, but I’m pretty sure poliquin says there’s a similar relationship between betaine HCL and stomach acid. (ie, that supplementing with betaine HCL will lead to an increase in stomach acid (to healthy levels.))

http://chriskresser.com/get-rid-of-heartburn-and-gerd-forever-in-three-simple-steps

That article is a GOLDMINE if you suffer from acid reflux. It’s a series of articles that’s pretty much the most comprehensive “everything you need to know about hearburn” thing i’ve ever seen. The guy knows his stuff.

Even if you don’t suffer from heartburn, he’s got tons of great tips for optimal digestive health in there, too.

(I have jehovasfitness to thank for turning me onto that guy.)

Okay, so I’ve been looking into this a lot lately, upon receiving results from a food intolerance test. I’m not experiencing any type of poor digestion or BM’s, but since I started the following, things are running better than I thought they could:

-Every day, I drink two cups of warm lemon water, following the guidelines in this article ( http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/liver_let_die ) . I also consume about 3oz a day of cranberry juice a day
-I consume 50 g of glutamine a day, spread across a few doses (10g at workout, 10g during the day, etc)
-I use one serving of Designs for Health GI-Revive every night
-I use about 5 g of l-glycine every night
-Half a serving of Designs for Health Paleofiber a night (I’m sensitive to the inulin in it, so I taper that one up slowly)

I’m also considering making water Kefir to get some additional good bacteria in me. TC’s recent article on bacteria stated that there was not really any evidence that bacteria from probiotic supplements actually survive in your system, but fermented foods and kefir would actually help digestion.

For those in this thread that were diagnosed with IBS, I recently read about Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO), which can often be mis-diagnosed as IBS. I’d recommend looking into that to see if your doctor would test you for it.

Hopefully something here can help someone.

[quote]eggers wrote:
I’m also considering making water Kefir to get some additional good bacteria in me. TC’s recent article on bacteria stated that there was not really any evidence that bacteria from probiotic supplements actually survive in your system, but fermented foods and kefir would actually help digestion.
[/quote]

A good friend of mine (who’s an impressive bodybuilder) swears by fermented foods for digestive health.

More on this:
http://chriskresser.com/more-evidence-to-support-the-theory-that-gerd-is-caused-by-bacterial-overgrowth

Also, apple cider vinegar helps digestion. I usually mix a couple tsps with a serving of superfood with a quick squirt of that mio drink flavoring stuff in a huge cup and sip on it. It’s pretty damn tasty, too! haha

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
copying and posting a response in the other thread in here just to keep it all in one place

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
The recommendation was actually to include (non-alcoholic) DIGESTIVE BITTERS and place a 1/2 dropper or some powder on the tongue until the bitter taste is realized- this will activate the Vagus nerve which stimulates the stomach to produce acid, the pancreas to produce it’s digestive enzymes, and even the liver to begin flushing. Trimethylglycine (TMG), aka betaine, is added in as it is a precursor to stomach acid that does not shut down natural production.
[/quote]
[/quote]

The B vitamin that I take contains trimethylglycine/betaine as it’s also a methyl donor - I just got some pure TMG powder that I’m going to start using in a few days, I’ll jump on here and note if I experience any change in digestive health with this addition.

Bitters (which are making a return in high end mixed drinks) have a long history as a digestive tonic - might be some merit there.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
-that’s really interesting about the digestive enzymes. I actually read somewhere that supplementing actually encourages your body to start producing more of its own enzymes over time. I will look further into that. What I was planning on doing was starting out using a high dose of digestive enzymes and lowering it over time, with a view to eventually cutting them out. I guess if I do cut them out and the old problems return that it is incorrect about them encouraging your body to produce its own.
[/quote]

I’m not sure about digestive enzymes, but I’m pretty sure poliquin says there’s a similar relationship between betaine HCL and stomach acid. (ie, that supplementing with betaine HCL will lead to an increase in stomach acid (to healthy levels.))

http://chriskresser.com/get-rid-of-heartburn-and-gerd-forever-in-three-simple-steps

That article is a GOLDMINE if you suffer from acid reflux. It’s a series of articles that’s pretty much the most comprehensive “everything you need to know about hearburn” thing i’ve ever seen. The guy knows his stuff.

Even if you don’t suffer from heartburn, he’s got tons of great tips for optimal digestive health in there, too.

(I have jehovasfitness to thank for turning me onto that guy.)[/quote]

yeah that was Poliquin where I read about the HCL no affecting natural production. I assumed the other enzymes would be the same but now I’m not so sure…

Thanks for the Chris Kesser article! I’m a fan of Kesser and have read his stuff in the past.

From reading the article, it seems that the DE product I purchased has an embarrassingly low level of betain hcl, so I am going to have to get my hands on an extra HCL supp at some point. Pain in the arse! But still, I’ve come too far to turn back now.

Firstly, just as a comment to whoever mentioned it- the friend that stopped sugars for a month, that is beneficial in that many “parasites” feed upon the sugars. This is also why alcohol is an issues. Bad bacteria thrive on the sugars and can lead to candida yeast (causes yeast infection, bloating, gas) which can start to deplete HCL in the stomach, which can then create an environment suitable for h pylori and other bad pathogens. eliminating sugars (including fruits and alcohol) is extremely beneficial for recovery. Someone touched on the FOS (fructooligosaccharides sp?). These are substances which GOOD bacteria feed on.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
so nate, firstly, thanks for the detailed post! A couple of things jumped out at me:

-my probiotics are refrigerated, and were kept refrigerated in the shop so I’m confident in the quality.

-that’s really interesting about the digestive enzymes. I actually read somewhere that supplementing actually encourages your body to start producing more of its own enzymes over time. I will look further into that. What I was planning on doing was starting out using a high dose of digestive enzymes and lowering it over time, with a view to eventually cutting them out. I guess if I do cut them out and the old problems return that it is incorrect about them encouraging your body to produce its own.

-I’ll definitely check out those bitters though man, thanks very much for pointing those out to me.

can I ask, what sort of distress have you been dealing with?[/quote]

I’ll just address in order:

  • while I follow the same idea of “these were cold in the shop,” remember that that shop doesn’t necessarily stock it in time. It may have been in the truck in the sun, out on the loading bay in the sun, in a box in the stock room in the sun before it finally makes it into the fridge. This is where making/procuring your own fermented items work. I have even just poured some of my probiotic onto my raw milk to let it ferment that way.

  • I had the same mindset and in fact did the same thing like Poliquin said. The issue for me was having to carry around a lot of pills all day. I was doing it with betaine-HCL and worked up to 6 pills per meal. Not only was I crushing my stash quickly but it’s annoying having a rattle in my pocket. It’s much easier having to take a TMG pill AM and/or PM and a few drops before and/or after a meal. I also enjoyed the concept of the body producing it’s own and I was interested in the liver flushing aspect of digestive bitters as I too had some party years where alcohol tore me up. I’m also 27.

  • Look over on cure zone for a guy that goes by hvar something. he has a piranha as his avi- he has provided me with a lot of information and data that just makes me rather go the bitters course. Make sure they are alcohol free. I made the mistake and bought with alcohol. I am mainly focusing on improving digestion to help/simulatenously heal my adrenals and alcohol is a no-no for adrenal recovery. Again, the bad stuff feeds on the alcohol as well.

-I get a lot of bloating and gas with pain in my intestines sometimes. Then i’ll have a little diarrhea but mostly I experience irregularity and constipation and a lot of symptoms of low/high HCL. I was diagnosed with Celiac via blood test but a endoscopy came back negative. I notice I feel better without glutens anyway so I try and avoid. I’m never really hungry but that was because I wasn’t digesting- adding in these supplements is helping. I do notice that when I eat certain things I get some rumblings going on. Dependent upon what it is, that could be good or bad. Like I said, I’m still a work in progress but I do FEEL better now than I have in a while.

[quote]atg410 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
copying and posting a response in the other thread in here just to keep it all in one place

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
The recommendation was actually to include (non-alcoholic) DIGESTIVE BITTERS and place a 1/2 dropper or some powder on the tongue until the bitter taste is realized- this will activate the Vagus nerve which stimulates the stomach to produce acid, the pancreas to produce it’s digestive enzymes, and even the liver to begin flushing. Trimethylglycine (TMG), aka betaine, is added in as it is a precursor to stomach acid that does not shut down natural production.
[/quote]
[/quote]

The B vitamin that I take contains trimethylglycine/betaine as it’s also a methyl donor - I just got some pure TMG powder that I’m going to start using in a few days, I’ll jump on here and note if I experience any change in digestive health with this addition.

Bitters (which are making a return in high end mixed drinks) have a long history as a digestive tonic - might be some merit there.[/quote]

Yea, B12 and I believe B5 are necessary for the production of stomach acid. B12 + B5 + TMG is essentially a natural way of increasing HCL production (TMG or betaine is found in beets for example). Pure HCL supplementation is basically a bandaid for a root problem. However, there are arguments saying that HCL alone is enough to bring up stomach acid production.

it never works right when I try to break up quotes into chunks but let’s give it a try:

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:

I’ll just address in order:

  • while I follow the same idea of “these were cold in the shop,” remember that that shop doesn’t necessarily stock it in time. It may have been in the truck in the sun, out on the loading bay in the sun, in a box in the stock room in the sun before it finally makes it into the fridge. This is where making/procuring your own fermented items work. I have even just poured some of my probiotic onto my raw milk to let it ferment that way.[/quote]

I get you, and if I were buying from a supermarket or something I’d be wary, but I use this awesome little independent health food shop run by this awesome little Indian guy. He knows EVERYTHING, and I trust he’s on the ball with things like that. When I go into his shop it’s like when a chick goes into a shoe shop. I want to buy it all!

[quote]

  • I had the same mindset and in fact did the same thing like Poliquin said. The issue for me was having to carry around a lot of pills all day. I was doing it with betaine-HCL and worked up to 6 pills per meal. Not only was I crushing my stash quickly but it’s annoying having a rattle in my pocket. It’s much easier having to take a TMG pill AM and/or PM and a few drops before and/or after a meal. I also enjoyed the concept of the body producing it’s own and I was interested in the liver flushing aspect of digestive bitters as I too had some party years where alcohol tore me up. I’m also 27.[/quote]

yeah that’s a bit of a pain in the arse but so it goes. I’m used to carrying my meals with me, so taking a bottle of supps isn’t so bad. Since I’ve already invested in the pills I’ll try them out, and if cessation of the pills leads to the symptoms returning I’ll know that I need to encourage my body to produce its own so I’ll get bitters.

[quote]

  • Look over on cure zone for a guy that goes by hvar something. he has a piranha as his avi- he has provided me with a lot of information and data that just makes me rather go the bitters course. Make sure they are alcohol free. I made the mistake and bought with alcohol. I am mainly focusing on improving digestion to help/simulatenously heal my adrenals and alcohol is a no-no for adrenal recovery. Again, the bad stuff feeds on the alcohol as well.[/quote]

I’ll check out cure zone later. Just what I need, another forum to waste time on! Heh.

[quote]
-I get a lot of bloating and gas with pain in my intestines sometimes. Then i’ll have a little diarrhea but mostly I experience irregularity and constipation and a lot of symptoms of low/high HCL. I was diagnosed with Celiac via blood test but a endoscopy came back negative. I notice I feel better without glutens anyway so I try and avoid. I’m never really hungry but that was because I wasn’t digesting- adding in these supplements is helping. I do notice that when I eat certain things I get some rumblings going on. Dependent upon what it is, that could be good or bad. Like I said, I’m still a work in progress but I do FEEL better now than I have in a while.[/quote]

I don’t ever get any pain thank god, it’s really just poor stool quality. I want to get it sorted though as it’s clearly only going to get worse as I get older. It’s frustrating because my diet is so good. The only food that really messes with me is something with loads of fresh chilli. I can handle a bit, but too much is going to fuck me up.

Together guys, we will beat this and master our bowels!

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:

[quote]atg410 wrote:

The B vitamin that I take contains trimethylglycine/betaine as it’s also a methyl donor - I just got some pure TMG powder that I’m going to start using in a few days, I’ll jump on here and note if I experience any change in digestive health with this addition.

Bitters (which are making a return in high end mixed drinks) have a long history as a digestive tonic - might be some merit there.[/quote]

Yea, B12 and I believe B5 are necessary for the production of stomach acid. B12 + B5 + TMG is essentially a natural way of increasing HCL production (TMG or betaine is found in beets for example). Pure HCL supplementation is basically a bandaid for a root problem. However, there are arguments saying that HCL alone is enough to bring up stomach acid production.[/quote]

Do you know anything about the connection between liver health and hcl production? I’m taking the above (b5, b12, tmg) to support methylation in stage 2 detox after a prolonged bout on corticosteroids - interesting that those same molecules are so important for digestive health.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
it never works right when I try to break up quotes into chunks but let’s give it a try:

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:

I’ll just address in order:

  • while I follow the same idea of “these were cold in the shop,” remember that that shop doesn’t necessarily stock it in time. It may have been in the truck in the sun, out on the loading bay in the sun, in a box in the stock room in the sun before it finally makes it into the fridge. This is where making/procuring your own fermented items work. I have even just poured some of my probiotic onto my raw milk to let it ferment that way.[/quote]

I get you, and if I were buying from a supermarket or something I’d be wary, but I use this awesome little independent health food shop run by this awesome little Indian guy. He knows EVERYTHING, and I trust he’s on the ball with things like that. When I go into his shop it’s like when a chick goes into a shoe shop. I want to buy it all!

[quote]

  • I had the same mindset and in fact did the same thing like Poliquin said. The issue for me was having to carry around a lot of pills all day. I was doing it with betaine-HCL and worked up to 6 pills per meal. Not only was I crushing my stash quickly but it’s annoying having a rattle in my pocket. It’s much easier having to take a TMG pill AM and/or PM and a few drops before and/or after a meal. I also enjoyed the concept of the body producing it’s own and I was interested in the liver flushing aspect of digestive bitters as I too had some party years where alcohol tore me up. I’m also 27.[/quote]

yeah that’s a bit of a pain in the arse but so it goes. I’m used to carrying my meals with me, so taking a bottle of supps isn’t so bad. Since I’ve already invested in the pills I’ll try them out, and if cessation of the pills leads to the symptoms returning I’ll know that I need to encourage my body to produce its own so I’ll get bitters.

[quote]

  • Look over on cure zone for a guy that goes by hvar something. he has a piranha as his avi- he has provided me with a lot of information and data that just makes me rather go the bitters course. Make sure they are alcohol free. I made the mistake and bought with alcohol. I am mainly focusing on improving digestion to help/simulatenously heal my adrenals and alcohol is a no-no for adrenal recovery. Again, the bad stuff feeds on the alcohol as well.[/quote]

I’ll check out cure zone later. Just what I need, another forum to waste time on! Heh.

[quote]
-I get a lot of bloating and gas with pain in my intestines sometimes. Then i’ll have a little diarrhea but mostly I experience irregularity and constipation and a lot of symptoms of low/high HCL. I was diagnosed with Celiac via blood test but a endoscopy came back negative. I notice I feel better without glutens anyway so I try and avoid. I’m never really hungry but that was because I wasn’t digesting- adding in these supplements is helping. I do notice that when I eat certain things I get some rumblings going on. Dependent upon what it is, that could be good or bad. Like I said, I’m still a work in progress but I do FEEL better now than I have in a while.[/quote]

I don’t ever get any pain thank god, it’s really just poor stool quality. I want to get it sorted though as it’s clearly only going to get worse as I get older. It’s frustrating because my diet is so good. The only food that really messes with me is something with loads of fresh chilli. I can handle a bit, but too much is going to fuck me up.

Together guys, we will beat this and master our bowels![/quote]

I wish I had a trusty little Indian man to help me. Most of my stuff is just from the burnouts at the Vitamin Shoppe so there is no spitballing with them. I buy a couple things from the nature store nearby but they are expensive so I try and minimize going in there.

In regards to already investing in the pills, I finished out a bottle as well and then transitioned over to this. Probably slowed me down a little bit to do 1 before the other but oh well. Like I said, the liver flush is a benefit. On top of all the other supps I was taking, adding in 15-18 pills a day of just HCL was a nuisance. I hadn’t approached the point where I was able to reduce by a pill. I probably should have given it more time but I liked the concepts with my current style more. Obviously I made the decision to switch on my own but I figured I would just lay it all out there.

I don’t even post on that other forum I just read all the stuff. There is soooooooooo much information. Just about any ailment has been discussed ad nauseum over there. You have to pick and choose your focus. I would often times discover one thing that sounded like it might be an issue and focus on that. Only after stepping back did I really start to think that maybe just attacking digestion in general will help my case.

I feel for you on digestion stuff. We all react in our own way but like you said, I don’t want this to get worse. With how bad it’s been before for me I can’t imagine continuing at that rate wouldn’t lead to colon cancer or some other insane outcome. I like my colon (I think) so I’d like to keep it! Like I said, I’m also using this to springboard into adrenal fatigue issues as I haven’t always had this digestion issue (maybe since 2009?) so I think they are related for me. I’ve been lifting along time and hit plateus both in strength and size I don’t think I ever should be stuck at based on my experience and focus so something has been holding me back. I believe poor digestion is that so I’m hoping by making sure I’m not malnourished and absorbing all I can I can break plateus and make it to where I want/should be

[quote]atg410 wrote:
Do you know anything about the connection between liver health and hcl production? I’m taking the above (b5, b12, tmg) to support methylation in stage 2 detox after a prolonged bout on corticosteroids - interesting that those same molecules are so important for digestive health.
[/quote]

I know admittedly very little. I know the supps you mentioned are critical for stomach acid production but in terms of methylation it’s above me. As I said, those same molecules are also important for the adrenals to recover/function. I would encourage you to check out that other forum b/c it’s riddled with information on exactly what you are talking about. I just kind of skimmed those parts. I really wish I could help more. You may be interested in the bitters as well due to the pumping of the liver…?

If you give me a bit I may be able to scrounge up some of the posts I am talking about (after lunch of course)

This is a really good one for bitters/TMG over HCL http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1480779

The guy I said to at least pay attention to (he’s like curezone’s KSman) is Hveragerthi.

I’m not even really sure what kind of information you are looking for atg410 nor do I feel qualified to give you any. You should check out that site as it is pretty all encompassing forum. Hopefully there is more help than I can provide.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
This is a really good one for bitters/TMG over HCL http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1480779

The guy I said to at least pay attention to (he’s like curezone’s KSman) is Hveragerthi.

I’m not even really sure what kind of information you are looking for atg410 nor do I feel qualified to give you any. You should check out that site as it is pretty all encompassing forum. Hopefully there is more help than I can provide.[/quote]

No worries, I’ll check it out. I asked more out of curiosity than any thing else - these are issues that I’m becoming increasingly fascinated by, especially as they relate to my own well being. In the past year I’ve started doing a lot of Chinese internal martial arts which place a significant emphasis on the importance of liver health - and at the same time I’m finding more and more links between liver health and other important issues on the bio-molecular side of things. Read an article recently about insulin resistance that makes the claim that the liver should be viewed as a primary endocrine organ. All just very interesting. I’ll check out that other forum for sure.

Thanks for all the great info guys,going to read up and try the bitters for sure.Any good source,site for purchase of these.