Guns and TC snobbishness article

Please do not mis-interpret my previous post. I love my country. I just think we have spent to much time listening to the masses which lets face it are not that damn bright. Just look at IQ scores. If you consider that the average IQ is 100. And 80 is mentally deficient. Then to someone with an iq or 120 the average person is retarded. I am just asking everyone in this country who is over 100 IQ to use it. Think for yourself. Vote for yourself… Not for what the masses think… I cannot believe some of the stupid shit I hear from people when election time rolls around. OH I am voting for him cause he is going to win… My head almost explodes when I hear shit like that. OR another personal favorite is if you vote for him you are throwing your vote away and taking a vote from the closest political party member to that person. NO shit. If everyone who thinks a vote for an independant till take a vote from the major politcal party -to counter this votes for the major political party then no shit the independant will not win. Damnit people are stupid. As they said in Men In Black a person can be intelligent, compasionate and rational. People are panicy, stupid, and illinformed. OR something like that. I am not saying go against everything I am just saying think and decide for yourself that is what is allowed in this country. WEll for the moment until the Gov’t/lawyers have painted us into a corner… Then the sheep will look to the intelligent and say why did you let this happen. =2#$@#=Rant mode off…

Israeli law requires that a person have a license in order to own any kind of firearm, but the license is readily available to any law-abiding adult who can show he or she has had firearms training. (Israel has universal military training for Jews of both sexes). And if you legally possess a gun, Israel allows–indeed encourages–carrying it. In effect, Israeli law nearly parallels that of Florida, Pennsylvania and 28 other U.S. states where licenses to carry a concealed firearm are available on application and passing a background check. (Vermonters have the right to carry without obtaining a license).

Nevertheless, though rapidly growing, gun ownership is low in Israel–because it is unnecessary. Israel is a socialist country, so the government is supposed to provide people all their basic needs, including guns for self defense. Israel loans out guns by the millions to its citizens.

Israelis going to a dangerous area routinely stop by a police station or communal armory to pick up an Uzi or a pistol. Israeli policy is that armed guardians should be near every place there are potential victims. Schools may not send children on field trips unless the children are accompanied by at least one teacher or parent carrying a gun.

At night, many neighborhoods are patrolled by “civil guards”–teenage volunteers carrying government-issued guns. If someone has disappeared (and possibly has been kidnaped), dozens, scores or even hundreds of civilian volunteer searchers are assembled and issued firearms to carry while searching for the missing person.

So widespread is this issuing of arms that it fundamentally affects Israeli firearms training. Since most pistols are not personally owned, Israelis are trained to keep them in “Condition 2” (cartridges in magazine, but not chambered). This is because the pistol a trainee may be issued at any particular future time could be any of the myriad of guns in Israeli arsenals: a Browning M-35 (Hi-Power); a Walther P-38; a Beretta Modello 1951 (Brigadeer); or even the French Modeles 1935A or 1950, or the Polish Pistolet wz/35 (Radom) or Czech CZ vz/27.

No matter how unfamiliar the recipient may be with a pistol issued him, one technique suits all: Condition 2 is a safe method of carry when there is no need for immediate use, and when all one need do is jack the slide to have the firearm ready for use.

Israel’s “guns everywhere” policy accounts for incidents such as the one in which three terrorists opened up with AK-47s on a Jerusalem crowd. The terrorists were able to kill only one victim before they were themselves shot down by handgun-carrying Israelis.

The surviving terrorist was bitter when he spoke to the press the next day. Their plan had been to quickly kill 20 or 30 people at a series of public places, always escaping before military or police could arrive. They hadn’t known Israeli civilians were armed. The terrorist felt that it just wasn’t “fair.”

Incidentally, this occurred within three weeks of the massacre of 21 unarmed victims in a San Ysidro, California, McDonald’s fast-food restaurant.

Whatever their purpose, European anti-gun laws have miserably failed.

Oh and another thing any nit picking anal retentive loser gets on my posts for the spelling needs to get a life. Spelling is very minor I admit I typed it quickly and didn’t spell check it but it makes sense. In other words if you have no better response to my post then use spell check then I would have to assume you agree and are just anal about spelling.

I would like to point out that crime rates in Europe are NOT LOWER than in the US (murders involving guns yes, all else and overall no). Further more, property crime (stores homes and cars mainly) is lower in the US (and especially in the gun totingest states) than in any other developed nation and less than half of that of the second best country Canada.

DAMN YOU PEOPLE! I should be doing Chemical Engineering homework right now…
Anyway, Kodiak and Irondoc and others- I commend you for your posts.
Lets take a quick trip back in the old “Way Back Machine” and get a quick history lesson.
The 2nd ammendment was written after those who founded this fine country had just gotten through with a bruatal and bloody war. One in which the general populace of the states held ground and won over a tyranncial government. Then the constitiution was written, in order to protect the general populace of this great country if the unlikely event of a tyrannical government taking power ever happened again. Rights like free speech, privacy, and others were written, never to be lost, because the authors of the Constitution knew damn good and well what could happen if rights like these were ever taken away. They had just lived it first hand. The 2nd Amd. was written that the general populace has the right to bear arms to protect against a tyrannical government, just like the one that the authors were just engaged in a bloody war with. This right to bear arms is a very important right. It is the only thing protecting the citizens of this country from a tyrannical government. We have the right to bear arms so that in the unlikely event the government would ever want to take complete and dominating control over its citizens through force, we could defend ourselves from such a horrid thing. That means not only should we be allowed to bear shotguns and rifles for hunting, but handguns, semi-auto, “assault weapons” and anything else we choose to. The reason for this being that the government still controls the military, and the military is armed to the teeth. So, the citizens of this country should be as well. Do we all understand why the 2nd amd. is such a damn important right, and IMO a RESPONIBILITY? If you do not protect yourself, then who will?
One more trip in my lovely “Way Back Machine.” Germany, pre WWII. One of Hitlers first acts when he gained power was disarming the populace. This was done under the guise of “safety” for the people of Germany. Once disarmed, Hitlers forces had no problem at all rolling in and taking complete control of everyone and everything.
That in mind, do not tell me that such a thing as a ‘good’ government going bad. The have througout history. And they have IN THE LAST 100 YEARS! So dont tell me it cant happen, because it can. And I for one and not going to be the unlucky s.o.b. caught with my hand in my pants if it ever does.

I read a book once.OK. I can’t lie. I read three this week. Two different doctors books on cholesterol and diet and one about making the IMAX movie on Mt. Everest. I started The Bell Curve but anyone with an IQ over 110 already knows through personal experience most of the stuff they take 550 pages of text to go through. I’ll wade through the rest of it later. The thing I’ve learned about the gun debate (been doing that awhile at 42) is that people that are against gun ownership will not change their mind. They think they are on higher moral ground than the lowbrows like myself that have safely handled firearms, including 8 years of military service, since I was 12 years old…damn, 30 years so far and still alive! I honestly hope they never have to learn how useful a gun might be through personal experience but that is probably the only thing that will change their stance.

A lot of good stuff guys. Dman , israeli, knuckledragger, etc. My dad started teaching me how to shoot at 5, yes 5. He was a HUGE on safety. I’ve carried on and off for personal protection for years. Since I live in Pa., a concealed carry permit was easy to obtain.
I think the safety training combined with the awareness training have benefited me more than anything else. I’ve learned not to panic in a situation and think. It can be done by a private citizen, just as an israeli pointed out. You will never hear in the media a story on an armed citizen preventing a tragedy, only the opposite. There have been some cases, such as an incident in Huntsville, Alabama a few years back.
AS an aside if anyone out there would like to read some good action novels that feature realistic gun lore and shooting, Stephen Hunter has a great series about an Arkansas sniper. There are about six books, with the first being Point Of Impact.

if you take the guns out of the hands of the american citizen, the only people who will have guns are the criminals and police/intelligence agencies, and sometimes its hard to tell whose worse particularly in regards to the cia.

I’m a little late on this thread but I am going to raise a few counterpoints.

  1. To Kodiak: Our founding fathers didn’t live in a country where the population is 225 million. They also didn’t forsee the weaponry available today. Lets say I am an idiot in 1790 and I start firing off my gun into the air on New Years Eve. I might kill a few livestock and a few gophers. If its 2002 and I live in a city, I’ll probably kill a few people a quarter of a mile to a couple miles away, if it hits a crowded room.

  2. To An Israeli: I would hate to have America be in the same state of affairs as Israel. i.e. “Kids, lets go for a picnic… oh by the way, lets stop off and get our UZI and RPG-7 in case we get attacked”. These should not be concerns of the common citizen in a modern society.

  3. To Huck: you mentioned that anyone trying anything on your property will get it. That presumes you live in an open-enough space (like that of the time when the ammendment was written) to ‘see them coming’ and react.

If you live in the city, what if the criminals are smart enough to disguise themselves as the local water or power company. Knock, knock, knock… Gun in your face, rob your place. Are you going to train your firearm on the door every time you answer it?

  1. Now, lets say I have young children and so, being protective, I have a gun safe so prying hands and minds don’t get into there. I don’t think a criminal is going to wait until I am polishing my guns (i.e. safe open) to come in and attack my family.

5) To DA MAN: Do you really think you can withstand the power of the United States military? If a tyrannical leader would assume the power of the military, they could simply retreat into SAC Norad and remotely release missiles carrying biological or chemical payloads and come out 5 months later if they really got that desperate. It is our responsibility to ELECT those leaders who REPRESENT OUR BELIEFS. The common citizen bearing arms has no chance in hell of overcoming professional soldiers who train 320 days out of the year.

I for one would feel more comfortable with less guns out there.

Now I am NOT saying to TOTALLY BAN FIREARMS but there are extreme consequences to the right to bear arms. Much more than most pro-2nd ammendment people care to realize.

Who are you going to limit guns to? Individuals with 100 IQ, 120 IQ. Maybe 160 and above. At that rate you might as well have no guns at all.

You can even take this to ridiculous extremes:

Where does the right to bear arms end? If you allow assault rifles, and fully automatic rifles, why not a grenade launcher. Do I have the right to carry a portable weapon of mass destruction? Just in case we might be invaded or our country might turn tyrranical or in case I spy a shitload of terrorists?

I think all citizens of the world have a duty to become educated… a ‘civilized’ society.

“There is more honor in a garden well planted than in a field run red with blood”

Were you kidding with your last post? Seriously you have to be pulling my leg.

RE: RockClimberJoe 2002-01-09 01:14:06
They also didn’t foresee the weaponry available today.

-How do you know what they foresaw?

start firing off my gun into the air on New Years Eve.
-Already Illegal

These should not be concerns of the common citizen in a modern society.
-I can appreciate you Utopic Idealism, some parts of the US are almost as dangerous, I also appreciate your defining what my concerns 'should be for me' 'education' you were talking about?

that anyone trying anything on your property will get it.

-That would also be illegal already in the state I live in, “trying anything” is no excuse for using force

Are you going to train your firearm on the door every time you answer it?

-I usually have a concealed handgun handy during those times if I don’t expect someone, no you dont train firearms at ‘a door’ you haven’ identifyed a threat yet, that is again illegal, go take a safety class dude, your dangerous.

Now, lets say I have young children and so, being protective, I have a gun safe so prying hands and minds don't get into there. I don't think a criminal is going to wait until I am polishing my guns (i.e. safe open) to come in and attack my family.

-If you are home, you can have a concealed weapon available that you control directly, out of the reach of children, this illustrates the Dire responsibilities that go with this right

I don't think a criminal is going to wait until I am polishing my guns (i.e. safe open) to come in and attack my family

-nope your family will be completely defenseless in that case because you have not taken the responsibility to protect them, good job


Do you really think you can withstand the power of the United States military?

-The US Military Officially recognizes the need for a Civilian Defense consisting of Armed citizens

It is our responsibility to ELECT those leaders who REPRESENT OUR BELIEFS.

-What if they don’t, they certainly don’t represent my beliefs right now

The common citizen bearing arms has no chance in hell of overcoming professional soldiers who train 320 days out of the year.

-How do you know?

I for one would feel more comfortable with less guns out there.

-That’s your emotional problem, we should piss away the constitution so you can feel 'more comfortable ’ I suggst prozac

Now I am NOT saying to TOTALLY BAN FIREARMS but there are extreme consequences to the right to bear arms.
-Its is a very heavy responsibility, and should not be taken frivolously

Much more than most pro-2nd amendment people care to realize.
-What is a 'pro-2nd amendment people' ? are there pro 4th amendment people too, how about just pro Constitution, or pro rights?

Who are you going to limit guns to?
-Individuals that have demonstrated responsibility

Individuals with 100 IQ, 120 IQ. Maybe 160 and above.
-What do you actually know about IQ

You can even take this to ridiculous extremes: Where does the right to bear arms end? If you allow assault rifles, and fully automatic rifles, why not a grenade launcher
-what is an "assault rifle", why not take every argument to ridiculous extremes?

Do I have the right to carry a portable weapon of mass destruction
-weapon of mass destruction couldn't be responsibly used for personal self defense so no I think (People shouldnt have cars because someone could have a car as big as a 747 and crush citys with it)

all citizens of the world have a duty to become educated
-A duty? what your going to force us by conscription to be educated in the 'officially accepted doctrines' We are not in your one world Government yet

"There is more honor in a garden well planted than in a field run red with blood"
-I'll advise my sister to just say that next time the rapist comes a calling, that will dissuade him (oops sorry mam.. your right my bad)

I will leave the other ones to the others, I am short on free time here.

Fantastic reply, Coyote.

  1. To DA MAN: Do you really think you can withstand the power of the United States military? If a tyrannical leader would assume the power of the military, they could simply retreat into SAC Norad and remotely release missiles carrying biological or chemical payloads and come out 5 months later if they really got that desperate.

–You are kidding about the nukes and bios, right? Lets utterly waist the land we are trying to gain. GOOD CALL, BRAINIAC! And as far as withstanding the military- I would rather die fighting them than just give up. How about you? You would just say “This is wrong on every level, but, hey, who am I to fight it?” I doubt that. And the rest of the world said the colonies had NO CHANCE of winning, yet they did, didnt they?

It is our responsibility to ELECT those leaders who REPRESENT OUR BELIEFS.

–Have you EVER seen a candidate that reflected your beliefs? Cuz I sure as hell havent. Close, but never truly on, or trustworthy, for that matter.

The common citizen bearing arms has no chance in hell of overcoming professional soldiers who train 320 days out of the year.

–Thats odd, I happen to know members of the military, and have gone to firing ranges with them. And not a single one can hold a pattern anywhere near what I can with anywhere near the range of weapons I can. Same with the police force. Been at the range with a ton of cops, and none of them can come anywhere near my, my dads, or even my sisters shooting ability. And we would be protecting our homes, our family, and our very lives, so I think we would fight just a wee bit harder. And we would have the home field advantage, because they would have to come get us.

I for one would feel more comfortable with less guns out there. Now I am NOT saying to TOTALLY BAN FIREARMS but there are extreme consequences to the right to bear arms. Much more than most pro-2nd ammendment people care to realize.

–Then who can we limit scissors to? people have died running with those, too. Lets ban those cuz they are inherently dangerous. I admit that guns are a very dangerous and lethal thing. That is what they are designed for. It is the responsibility of the one holding the gun to do what is right. And last time I checked, the government didnt control any citizens morality.

Who are you going to limit guns to? Individuals with 100 IQ, 120 IQ. Maybe 160 and above. At that rate you might as well have no guns at all.

–Thats a bit obsurd, no? Even stupid people know the difference between right and wrong. And since when does the government regulate anything to that extreme? If that is the case, only people who can pass a written test on the drawbacks of smoking should be allowed to purchase cigs. Or only people who can pass a written test on how dangerous fire can be can purchase a lighter. And only people who can pass a written test on how horrid sturated fat is for you can purchase a snickers bar. You see how obsurd that all sounds? Why do people always stop with the controlling government thoughts with guns? never cars, or cigs, or any other right- just guns. Guns are not dangerous. a gun sitting on the ground can not hurt anyone, no matter how much it wants to. it takes A HUMAN to pick it up, load it, and pull the trigger to do ANY damage to ANYTHING.

You can even take this to ridiculous extremes: Where does the right to bear arms end? If you allow assault rifles, and fully automatic rifles, why not a grenade launcher. Do I have the right to carry a portable weapon of mass destruction? Just in case we might be invaded or our country might turn tyrranical or in case I spy a shitload of terrorists? I think all citizens of the world have a duty to become educated… a ‘civilized’ society. “There is more honor in a garden well planted than in a field run red with blood”

–“To ensure peace, you must prepare for war.” We can trade qoutes all day long… And there should be no limit, in theory, to the extent of weaponry a citizen should be allowed to obtain. If it exists, we should be allowed to own it, because we need an even playing field if a war ever does break out, and that is what the 2nd was written for. And, for that matter, I can make weapons of mass destruction in my garage or basement with a few ordinary ingredients. so what is banning them going to do? nada. A civilized society realizes that not all people are altruistic, and that utopia is impossible. That is why things like the Constitution were written, to MAKE DAMN SURE no matter how fucked up the future gets, that the citizens of this fine country have rights. Preventative mantainance, my friend.

Yes, I have enough land that I can see someone coming. No, we don’t have small children. No, I don’t answer the door with my pistol, but do you really have to? Most criminals are cowards, and will try to snaek into your home to steal or harm. Also, we are in the country, and we don’t have crackheads doing the home invasion thing. And I stand by my statement. If you come after me, my wife, or our possessions you’ll get shot. In fact, a few years ago, we had a problem with someone harrassing my wife (leaving weird messages in the mailbox, etc) when I was out of town. We had the Sherrif out to the house, and he told her that if she would be patient, and let the asshole get into the house first, and then empty the gun into him, she would save him a lot of paperwork. Got to love them good old boys.

I have the RIGHT to protect myself, I have the RIGHT to have a gun (bear arms), you don’t like our constitution, fine, LEAVE!!! drugs should be (and really are) legal also.

I’d like to say that the quality of the posts over the last couple of days have been truly excellent. I would like to ask a favor of all those who oppose our 2nd ammendment rights. Please do some unbiased research on this issue with an open mind. For years I supported gun control. I went to a liberal high school and I listened to the mainstream media. I was of the opinion that firearms were bad and the 2nd ammendment was outdated. It was not until my junior year in high school that I began to question these “facts”. By the time I started college I was a card carrying NRA member. If someone is only exposed to one point of view it is so easy for them to accept it. If you’ve honestly researched gun control and the 2nd ammendment and still support gun control then fine, we can agree to disagree. If you haven’t then please do, you may be surprised.

I personally am glad I live in a country where there is now strict gun control. But I guess a society is what it’s people make it. As for government agencies-some of you people need to stop dreaming. I don’t think the US government is interested in you Mr Joe Blow. If they were tapping your phones, bugging your underwear etc, they would have got you by now. I think the government is the least of your worries unless you live in Pakistan or Columbia. I’d rather be defending my house with my cricket bat against a couple of junkies armed with screwdrivers, than with a Glock against gangbangers armed with Uzis.

re:I’d rather be defending my house with my cricket bat against a couple of junkies armed with screwdrivers, than with a Glock against gangbangers armed with Uzis.
Well so would I mate, well kinda, I’d rather have my Glock when they had the screwdrivers but…

Sad but true- the ‘Lawless Bad Guys’ by definition do not care about Laws, only law abiders abide by Laws, so it would be likely in real life that the bangers would have Uzis (because, as they are attempting murder and mayhem, possession of a weapon is the least of there legal concerns) and you would be stuck with the cricket bat (because your a Good Guy and law abider).
In Utopian theoretical models of the world, I wish there were no need of weapons, but grandma would still need that glock against the screwdriver gang, so would grandpa, or my wife, or my nieces, because they cannot expect to prevail in a defense situation armed with a Bat, they require a force equalizer to prevail.

Violence is part of nature, it is natural to protect oneself from predation, we probably have had this dilemma with weapons forever


5000 BC

Ork worried about bad Awk tribe, Ork think hard, Ork happy to find big stick is good to smash bad Awk tribe, Ork also give stick to cave mate Yana so she not bashed by Awk tribe, Yana afraid of big stick, say she no want big stick,big stick scary, Yana think Yana might even bash Yana with stick, Awk tribe might get even bigger stick to bash Yana!!, Yana make cave rule NO BIG STICK IN CAVE ALLOWED!, Yana feel safe now, Ork more afraid of Yana than Awk tribe so he burn all big sticks, poor Ork :frowning:

Awk tribe come, Yana tells Awks NO BIG STICK IN CAVE ALLOWED!, Awk tribe says Yana stupid!, Awk tribe smash Yana!

poor yana :frowning:

i can appreciate your viewpoint, but quite frankly, i trust a stranger on the street more than i do the government, partcularly in regards to some of its agencies especially the cia. here’s an interesting little pattern for ya’, ho chi minh-one time cia agent funded and supported by the cia and its predecessor the oss, without the support of the cia it is doubtful the vietnamese would have ever been able to kick out the french colonials…sadamn hussein-funded and supported by the cia…osama bin laden/taliban-this regime supported and funded by the cia…do you think its just a fucking coincidence that last three wars we have fought have been against people we once supported? i question whether some elite people have our countries best interests at heart.

sad to say, apollo, but you are what I like to call a victim. And did I not site an instance of “good” government going bad? Or is proof that “civilized” governments can indeed go bad not good enough of a reason for you?

If it’s working for you, then fine. I was just offering a different perspective. Coyote I couldn’t agree more with you. DA MAN I think you’ve got your wires crossed.