T Nation

Gunman Kills 16 At Immigration Center in NY

[i]"BINGHAMTON, N.Y. ? A gunman opened fire on a room where immigrants were taking a citizenship exam in downtown Binghamton on Friday, killing as many as 13 people before committing suicide, officials said.

Gov. David Paterson said at a news conference that 12 or 13 people had been killed. The suspected gunman carried identification with the name of 42-year-old Jiverly Voong of nearby Johnson City, N.Y., a law enforcement official said.

The name is an alias that the man has used in the past, said the official, who was not authorized to speak publicly and was talking on condition of anonymity.

The suspect’s body was found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound in an office of the American Civic Association building, the official said. The gunman barricaded the rear door of the building with his car before entering through the front door, firing his weapon, the official said.

The gunman had recently been let go from IBM in nearby Johnson City, said Rep. Maurice Hinchey, whose district includes Binghamton. The gunman opened fire on a citizenship class, he said."[/i]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30030756/?GT1=43001

The feds tell us we cannot arm ourselves and that we must rely on them for our safety and protection.

Is anyone paying attention?

they took our jobs!

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The feds tell us we cannot arm ourselves and that we must rely on them for our safety and protection. [/quote]

I would have assumed that people taking a “citizenship exam” don’t have the right to arm themselves. Am I wrong?

[quote]lixy wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The feds tell us we cannot arm ourselves and that we must rely on them for our safety and protection.

I would have assumed that people taking a “citizenship exam” don’t have the right to arm themselves. Am I wrong?[/quote]

They were in a “community” center studying for the exam.

Why would not being a “citizen” preclude one from gun ownership?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The feds tell us we cannot arm ourselves and that we must rely on them for our safety and protection.

Is anyone paying attention?[/quote]

Not only that, but has anyone noticed that the two most recent mass-murders involving firearms took place in states which have the most restrictive firearm laws?

In the state of New York, the law make it very difficult to possess a handgun. One must obtain a handgun license, and register his handgun with the police. And carrying it concealed? Unless you can prove that you “need” a concealed handgun for some reason, forget about it. In practice, very few handgun licenses are issued, unless you happen to be a Democratic Senator.

And yet, the gunman had not one, but two handguns. Interesting. Could it be that even highly restrictive firearms laws are ineffective in preventing people from obtaining firearms illegally?

Or is that simply too rational a conclusion for the chattering classes to be expected to reach?

[quote]lixy wrote:
I would have assumed that people taking a “citizenship exam” don’t have the right to arm themselves. Am I wrong?[/quote]

Federal law does not preclude a non-citizen from owning a firearm, in most cases. According to the Gun Control Act of 1968, as long as a non-citizen has an immigrant visa, is neither a felon or fugitive from justice, is not a drug abuser, and has not been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of violence, he is eligible to obtain a firearm.

Interestingly, if a US citizen renounces his citizenship, or is dishonorably discharged from the military, he relinquishes his right to own a firearm.

State law may have different stipulations, and of course it may vary by state.

You know, these shootings are still quite rare. But every time one happens, I always hear about how “if everyone had a gun, these shootings would never happen”.

I think that’s nonsense. If everyone had a gun, people would be shooting each other over parking spots. People would be shooting at their neighbors because their dog shit on their lawn. People would be shooting at each other on the freeway because someone didn’t signal a lane change. I don’t think anyone can argue against this logic, people are fucking idiots and if you give idiots guns, you can expect idiotic things to happen.

I’m not for infringing on anyones constitutional rights, but I think people need to be realistic about this subject:

Not everyone should have access to a firearm.

But that’s what I am hearing from pro-gun people. Arm everyone, and gun violence will disappear.

NO.

Arm everyone and watch gun violence soar to new levels.

Again, just to remind everyone, I’m not an advocate for taking away anyones rights. I’m just very cynical, and VERY distrustful of people in general.

I don’t like the idea of allowing my white trash, alcoholic, asshole neighbor to just go into a gun store and walk out with a gun. He’s the type of asshole that will shoot someone because he’s having a bad day. Not something I want to be around.

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
You know, these shootings are still quite rare. But every time one happens, I always hear about how “if everyone had a gun, these shootings would never happen”.

I think that’s nonsense. If everyone had a gun, people would be shooting each other over parking spots. People would be shooting at their neighbors because their dog shit on their lawn. People would be shooting at each other on the freeway because someone didn’t signal a lane change. I don’t think anyone can argue against this logic, people are fucking idiots and if you give idiots guns, you can expect idiotic things to happen.

I’m not for infringing on anyones constitutional rights, but I think people need to be realistic about this subject:

Not everyone should have access to a firearm.

But that’s what I am hearing from pro-gun people. Arm everyone, and gun violence will disappear.

NO.

Arm everyone and watch gun violence soar to new levels.

Again, just to remind everyone, I’m not an advocate for taking away anyones rights. I’m just very cynical, and VERY distrustful of people in general.

I don’t like the idea of allowing my white trash, alcoholic, asshole neighbor to just go into a gun store and walk out with a gun. He’s the type of asshole that will shoot someone because he’s having a bad day. Not something I want to be around.[/quote]

Good point, happens daily here in North Idaho. I’m scared to leave my home.

mike

Guns kill people like a spoon made Rosie O’Donnell fat.

I saw that on a bumper sticker.

It’s a shame that these shootings merely raise an eyebrow nowdays. The problem is that these shooters feel they must punish others rather than assume responsibility for their own lot in life.

Rot in hell motherfucker.

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
You know, these shootings are still quite rare. But every time one happens, I always hear about how “if everyone had a gun, these shootings would never happen”.

I think that’s nonsense. If everyone had a gun, people would be shooting each other over parking spots. People would be shooting at their neighbors because their dog shit on their lawn. People would be shooting at each other on the freeway because someone didn’t signal a lane change. I don’t think anyone can argue against this logic, people are fucking idiots and if you give idiots guns, you can expect idiotic things to happen.

I’m not for infringing on anyones constitutional rights, but I think people need to be realistic about this subject:

Not everyone should have access to a firearm.

But that’s what I am hearing from pro-gun people. Arm everyone, and gun violence will disappear.

NO.

Arm everyone and watch gun violence soar to new levels.

Again, just to remind everyone, I’m not an advocate for taking away anyones rights. I’m just very cynical, and VERY distrustful of people in general.

I don’t like the idea of allowing my white trash, alcoholic, asshole neighbor to just go into a gun store and walk out with a gun. He’s the type of asshole that will shoot someone because he’s having a bad day. Not something I want to be around.[/quote]

Looking at people it seems logical to conclude that an increase in the number of armed people (or even removing the more stringent requirements thus making it hypothetically easier to carry a firearm) would increase the incidence of events as you have described, however it just doesn’t seem to be the case. If you look at the statistics over multiple jurisdictions it just doesnt seem to happen. I’m not going to look for statistics and my post is absolutely weakened for it, however if you look at places like New Hampshire, I think Maine, or Switzerland (where you have to own a gun, something I don’t support), versus places like Japan, or let’s say New York, there just isn’t an explosion of violence. You’d have to take culture into account though.

However you are absolutely right to say that gun rights doesn’t magically make a utopia. People will still be shot, people will still be murdered, and that is a fact we should embrace, because the alternative would be worse. The thing is, you just can’t change that and gun rights people should embrace it because gun control people sometimes seem to think that if you ban guns, guns disappear. Hasn’t worked with the drug war.

I think both sides often make believe, and it is unneccesary.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
skaz05 wrote:
You know, these shootings are still quite rare. But every time one happens, I always hear about how “if everyone had a gun, these shootings would never happen”.

I think that’s nonsense. If everyone had a gun, people would be shooting each other over parking spots. People would be shooting at their neighbors because their dog shit on their lawn. People would be shooting at each other on the freeway because someone didn’t signal a lane change. I don’t think anyone can argue against this logic, people are fucking idiots and if you give idiots guns, you can expect idiotic things to happen.

I’m not for infringing on anyones constitutional rights, but I think people need to be realistic about this subject:

Not everyone should have access to a firearm.

But that’s what I am hearing from pro-gun people. Arm everyone, and gun violence will disappear.

NO.

Arm everyone and watch gun violence soar to new levels.

Again, just to remind everyone, I’m not an advocate for taking away anyones rights. I’m just very cynical, and VERY distrustful of people in general.

I don’t like the idea of allowing my white trash, alcoholic, asshole neighbor to just go into a gun store and walk out with a gun. He’s the type of asshole that will shoot someone because he’s having a bad day. Not something I want to be around.

Good point, happens daily here in North Idaho. I’m scared to leave my home.

mike[/quote]

Me too in Pa. We have aright to carry st and just yesterday, 17,500 people were gunned down at a hockey game. I just shot 8 motorists yesterday on my way to work.

They were pissing me off. You see, pissy ass liberals don’t realize that gun owning conservatives who are law abiding people are law abiding people.

Want to ban something that will save lives.

Not to sound like a CT’er, but do you know how everytime a Dem is Prez or a Dem agenda is being pushed (read far left liberal) the gun violence goes up. It’s funny it is almost like societies are talking to one another.Im not normally a CT’er but as a Coach during a game I look for clues or a constant. Something I can wrap my mind around and give me an advantage (see the movie “the rounders”). Or it all could be just coincidence and the dumb muthafuker forgot the blue pills were to be taken at night and the red pills in the morning, and started too listen to the little green men in his head.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:

Good point, happens daily here in North Idaho. I’m scared to leave my home.

mike

Me too in Pa. We have aright to carry st and just yesterday, 17,500 people were gunned down at a hockey game. I just shot 8 motorists yesterday on my way to work.

They were pissing me off. You see, pissy ass liberals don’t realize that gun owning conservatives who are law abiding people are law abiding people.

Want to ban something that will save lives.
[/quote]

I didn’t mean it exactly like that, and I don’t consider myself a pussy ass liberal.

I’m just not comfortable with relaxing gun laws to the point where any dipshit can just walk into any gun store with a couple hundred bucks, and walk out with a gun.

I have never been in the position where I thought I would need a gun to defend myself, or anyone else. It might be bedlam and chaos everywhere else, but here gun violence is so minimal that I don’t feel the need to go and arm myself.

My intense cynicism of people makes me think that people, even law abiding gun owners, only want a gun because they hope that they will have the opportunity to shoot someone. That’s why a lot of people become cops, because they see cops in the movies and think that being a cop means that they will have daily shootouts with the bad guys. I mean why, when you go target shooting, do you shoot at silhouettes of humans?

I have known several so called “responsible” gun owners, and they all seem preoccupied with the thought that they will one day be engaged in some small war with imaginary “bad guys” or that one day a gang of thugs will break into their house and try to kill their family. I think it’s paranioa, gun owners call it “preparedness”.

I just don’t trust people. Even people that claim to be law abiding and honest. Anyone can flip out and lose their common sense, my worry is if that someone is a “responsible law abiding” gun owner.

the thought that more armed people would cause an increase in gun violence, or as some people like to say “a return to the wild west” is utterly and completely false.

In actual fact that homicide rate was lower in some of the cattle towns in Texas during the wild west heydays than it is in some of our most gun restrictive states.

http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m2d17-Dispelling-the-myth-of-The-Wild-West

So to answer your question, no, more guns does not equate to more people shooting other people. What is your next theory? Less marijuana on the street means fewer people want to smoke pot?

[quote]Ren wrote:
Less marijuana on the street means fewer people want to smoke pot?[/quote]

Fewer squat racks in the gym mean fewer people doing curls.

[quote]Ren wrote:
the thought that more armed people would cause an increase in gun violence, or as some people like to say “a return to the wild west” is utterly and completely false.

In actual fact that homicide rate was lower in some of the cattle towns in Texas during the wild west heydays than it is in some of our most gun restrictive states.

http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m2d17-Dispelling-the-myth-of-The-Wild-West

So to answer your question, no, more guns does not equate to more people shooting other people. What is your next theory? Less marijuana on the street means fewer people want to smoke pot?[/quote]

boils down to culture. areas that have always had high gun ownership, where guns aren’t a center piece for murdering people or symbols of power to threaten others with, like canada, do fine with that.

but do you think if we doubled or tripled the gun ownership in say east LA or Oakland that gun crime and murders would not go up?

that marijuana example is piss poor, were not talking about preventing people from WANTING to kill people, its preventing people FROM killing people.

the modern gun owning law abiding population is spot on, safe, and responsible for the most part (98%).

but its the fucktards like the people who you see get in fist fights at little kids soccer games and put people in comas, or people who beat the shit out of a guy who got to his favorite parking spot first, or for wearing an opposing teams jersey, that we dont want having increased access to guns. These people clearly can’t control their anger properly.

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
I just don’t trust people. Even people that claim to be law abiding and honest. Anyone can flip out and lose their common sense, my worry is if that someone is a “responsible law abiding” gun owner.[/quote]

You don’t trust people? Do you trust the government that is also made up of the same “people” you don’t trust to protect you?

Anyone that flips out and starts killing people without cause ceases to be a “responsible, law abiding gun owner”. No one can ensure that only these people can get guns. The best we can do is make it so that laws do not discriminate against certain classes of individuals so that every one can be “equally” protected.

Personally, I would never trust that the police are going to show up to save me, or even that they care…they have families to think about too. Why should they put their neck on the line for a stranger just because they have taken some ambiguous oath?

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
but do you think if we doubled or tripled the gun ownership in say east LA or Oakland that gun crime and murders would not go up?
[/quote]

Do you think all people that live in the inner city are too stupid to handle the responsibility of a firearm?

If you lived in East LA and you knew “everyone” was carrying a gun how likely would it be that you would think about committing a violent, armed crime there?

Minorities living in the US need guns more than white people – because the police do not care about them at all. Yet, in states with the largest minority populations gun laws are the most restrictive and violent gun crimes are the highest…go figure.

A five-barrel 12-gauge shotgun made by inmates in the Texas Penitentiary metal shop. If you want a gun bad enough, you will get a gun, no matter where you are.

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:

the modern gun owning law abiding population is spot on, safe, and responsible for the most part (98%).

but its the fucktards like the people who you see get in fist fights at little kids soccer games and put people in comas, or people who beat the shit out of a guy who got to his favorite parking spot first, or for wearing an opposing teams jersey, that we dont want having increased access to guns. These people clearly can’t control their anger properly.[/quote]

Well, those are precisely the people that federal and state laws already on the books is designed to weed out.

As I mentioned previously, people convicted of felonies or misdemeanor crimes of violence, fugitives from justice, illegal aliens, drug abusers, people dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, and even people who have renounced their US citizenship, are prohibited from ever buying or owning a gun.

Regardless, many of them do buy and own guns, illegally. Or they have their wives or girlfriends buy them for them. Or they steal them. Or they make them (it ain’t that hard. If you’re smart enough to pass high school metal shop, you can make a 12-gauge shotgun).

Just as they will continue to do regardless of ANY law prohibiting them from doing so. Criminals will always find a way of arming themselves, no matter how restrictive the laws become.