T Nation

Gun Control

[quote]Fonebone wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I believe that this kid had access to a gun and it probably came from home as most do. Yes, the parents are to blame…but so is a society that assumes that metal detectors are only necessary in “that” neighborhood.

Ah, the race card. What does this have to with anything being discussed here?

Why does it bother you so much that I made a decent point…?

Don’t flatter yourself.

…instead of just yelling out another “Amen”?

Obviously is a dig at my semi-sarcastic post above. I am in agreement with the gist of more guns = less crime, and the post was a way to express it with a touch of humor. Please stop assuming that because someone has a strong belief about something, they “lack a grasp of the situation” or “only see things in black and white”. That is patently absurd. I am well acquainted with both sides of this debate. Oh, and you might try to develop a personality trait other than belligerence. [/quote]

That post wasn’t a dig at you at all and this isn’t about race. Are you going to argue that people don’t think living in the suburbs excludes them from certain crimes? Is that truly your stance? My last post was directly to sniper, not you so why would YOU take it personally?

Isn’t gun control having a steady hand as you gently squeeze the trigger?

Fone, you say belligerence but you forgot condascending. Assuming he got the weapon at home, if it was properly locked and stored(i.e. responsible parenting) he owuld not have had access to his parents weapon. Surely if he was intent on killing his vive principal he would have illegaly obtained a weapon anyways. As for your reference to society deeming metal detectors only necessary “over there in that school”(or however you stated it) I would have you pegged for the type of liberal that wouldn’t want any metal detectors anywhere because it would interfere with peoples rights to carry on them what they please.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That post wasn’t a dig at you at all and this isn’t about race. Are you going to argue that people don’t think living in the suburbs excludes them from certain crimes? Is that truly your stance? My last post was directly to sniper, not you so why would YOU take it personally?[/quote]

Because you quoted ME, which I do not take personally, by the way; I’m not that sensitive. Again, though, you are putting words in my mouth. When did I say anything about crime vis-a-vis the suburbs? I’m sorry, but I am really having a hard time following you here.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
As for your reference to society deeming metal detectors only necessary “over there in that school”(or however you stated it) I would have you pegged for the type of liberal that wouldn’t want any metal detectors anywhere because it would interfere with peoples rights to carry on them what they please. [/quote]

Dude, who said I was a liberal? I’m in the military, why would I be against anyone carrying a weapon? I am against EVERYONE carrying a weapon, therefore I am for some restrictions. Quit listening to other people about what my political stance is. That is what I meant by only seeing all black or all white. You don’t even bother to listen to anyone’s point, you just assume their stance based on a label.

[quote]Fonebone wrote:
When did I say anything about crime vis-a-vis the suburbs? I’m sorry, but I am really having a hard time following you here.[/quote]

My point was about certain areas believing that “this can’t happen here”. This is usually an attitude associated with the suburbs. You are the one who related this to race yet you accuse me of assuming?

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
Isn’t gun control having a steady hand as you gently squeeze the trigger?[/quote]

jlesk, you put up some crazy shit sometimes, but you are 100% right with this one.

Good gun control is hitting your target.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
Isn’t gun control having a steady hand as you gently squeeze the trigger?

jlesk, you put up some crazy shit sometimes, but you are 100% right with this one.

Good gun control is hitting your target.[/quote]

I know, I know, I’m a pro 2nd ammendment gun owner.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Fonebone wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I believe that this kid had access to a gun and it probably came from home as most do. Yes, the parents are to blame…but so is a society that assumes that metal detectors are only necessary in “that” neighborhood.

Ah, the race card. What does this have to with anything being discussed here?

Why does it bother you so much that I made a decent point…?

Don’t flatter yourself.

…instead of just yelling out another “Amen”?

Obviously is a dig at my semi-sarcastic post above. I am in agreement with the gist of more guns = less crime, and the post was a way to express it with a touch of humor. Please stop assuming that because someone has a strong belief about something, they “lack a grasp of the situation” or “only see things in black and white”. That is patently absurd. I am well acquainted with both sides of this debate. Oh, and you might try to develop a personality trait other than belligerence.

That post wasn’t a dig at you at all and this isn’t about race. Are you going to argue that people don’t think living in the suburbs excludes them from certain crimes? Is that truly your stance? My last post was directly to sniper, not you so why would YOU take it personally?[/quote]

We live in the country and most of our schools have metal detectors, at least the bigger ones do.

I have to agree I don’t think guns are the problem, whether it is domestic violence or kids in school. Guns just make it easier, most would find another form of killing if they really want to. It is not like stabbings never happen or bombs.

The reason for not wanting a long waiting period. New orleans and Texas. When left to defend your selves because police can’t, I want to be able to get a gun when I need it, not wait 4 months.

Someone mentioned road rage, perhaps if the other driver knew that people have guns and just might use them, they would be a little more curdious to others. People don’t think twice about tailgating and cutting people off, I mean afterall what can they do about it, Blow thier horn. That sure puts the fear in me.

My 2 cents. I am Canadian, I am so left wing I am a socialist, and I really don’t like guns, but I don’t belive in gun control. All I see gun control doing is making a pain in the ass for honest gun owners. I don’t know the numbers but I am under the impression that most gun crime is committed with illegaly obatained guns.

That being said I think that gun ownership should not be a right, and it should be regulated in the same manner as a drivers licence, you get tested on competence for various kinds of guns just like a car, you get your licence and thats that, Then you simply present your licence when ever you buy guns or ammunition, the vendor can then check your licence against a national gun licence regestry, (you know like some bars have a scanner to read drivers licences), everything checks out and you get your stuff the same day. This way it is harder for people to get ammo for stolen guns.

As I said this is just what I think, I my self collect swords and would be mortified if some politician said I couldn’t keep my collection because it is bunch of weapons.
To quote DMX “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”

[quote]Kagemusha wrote:
good stuff.[/quote]

I pretty much agree with that idea. I also collect swords and wouldn’t want anyone touching them. Yes, most violent crimes are due to illegal guns, however, it seems that many of these issues about kids with guns are due to parents not taking control and either locking away any firearms or paying attention to what their kids are actually doing.

[quote]AZMojo wrote:

First of all, the gun laws in California ARE pretty lax. They’re only slightly more restrictive that TX and AZ, which both allow for open carry without a special permit.
[/quote]

You’re kidding, right? Right??
Please tell me you’re kidding.
I live in one of the most conservative counties in Kalifornia, and there is NO WAY a “normal” person can get a permit to carry a firearm.
And it’s a felony to carry one without a permit. (Unless it’s locked away and not easily accessible.)

No,gun control is being able to hit what you are shooting at.

Bone Support
Muscular relaxation
breathing(natural resporatory pause)
slow steady trigger pressure
slow release

I don’t normally get into these discussions, but in this case I think I will wade in.

I am a Texan, and have a concealed carry license. I don’t see a problem with having/carrying firearms, especially concealed ones. If you know, or think someone might be carrying, would you really want to rob them, or try to do them harm? An armed society is a polite society. As far as people going off and just shooting others, you will have that regardless. At least with the right to carry, you might have the opportunity to at least protect yourself.
The problem with children getting firearms and killing themselves or others, can be cured with education. Most kids are never taught how to use a firearm, or what a firearm will do. Educating kids about them will take away the mystique, and show them that they are just another tool.
I really don’t like the fact that I have to ask Uncle Sugar’s permission to carry, but I do like the fact that I have to prove I can actually use a firearm. I think if you want to carry, you should have to prove you can use one responsibly. I have never had to pull mine, and hope I never do. I have had a couple of situations that could have developed into something. I think knowing that I was carrying at the time probably scared me more than the other person.

[quote]Bad John wrote:
Most kids are never taught how to use a firearm, or what a firearm will do. [/quote]

I think the last couple of school shootings involved kids that had a fairly decent clue of what guns do.

[quote]
I think if you want to carry, you should have to prove you can use one responsibly. [/quote]

Agreed. There should also be a stupidity test. The potential gun owner should be locked in a test room (viewed through a two way mirror) with a kid, a gun, and a tv airing whatever reality show gets the most ratings currently. Once the test subject has been engrossed by the magic of tv, if he tosses the weapon on the bed in plain site in favor of big titties on Fear Factor, he loses his right to bear arms.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Bad John wrote:
Most kids are never taught how to use a firearm, or what a firearm will do.

I think the last couple of school shootings involved kids that had a fairly decent clue of what guns do.

I think if you want to carry, you should have to prove you can use one responsibly.

Agreed. There should also be a stupidity test. The potential gun owner should be locked in a test room (viewed through a two way mirror) with a kid, a gun, and a tv airing whatever reality show gets the most ratings currently. Once the test subject has been engrossed by the magic of tv, if he tosses the weapon on the bed in plain site in favor of big titties on Fear Factor, he loses his right to bear arms.[/quote]

I agree, they probably knew how to operate them. What they weren’t taught was the safe handling and implications of using them.

If someone has dropped off the deep end, and is going to kill someone. They will probably use what is handy and expedient.

[quote]awesomepossom wrote:
AZMojo wrote:

First of all, the gun laws in California ARE pretty lax. They’re only slightly more restrictive that TX and AZ, which both allow for open carry without a special permit.

You’re kidding, right? Right??
Please tell me you’re kidding.
I live in one of the most conservative counties in Kalifornia, and there is NO WAY a “normal” person can get a permit to carry a firearm.
And it’s a felony to carry one without a permit. (Unless it’s locked away and not easily accessible.)[/quote]

I was referring more toward the aquisition of a firearm, which used to be pretty easy in CA, at least when I lived there. I didn’t mean to imply that you could carry one.

I stand corrected though, because I just looked up all the laws they’ve put in place in the last five years. Damn!! My bad. Thanks for keeping me honest.

I don’t think anyone has addressed the real issue here, big surprise.

Ok, everyone follow me and repeat; “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”.

We are only having this conversation because guns are very efficient weapons. If no one had guns then we would be talking about knife control. If no one had knives we would be talking about baseball bat control; " honest officer I only use it for sport"

The issue is that people want to hurt each other. If we didn’t have guns it would be something else that would be the means to kill. The focus should be on why we want to kill each other?

I teach people how to shoot guns for a living. I am a firm believer in “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” I have never seen a gun waling down the street shooting people. To get rid of all guns will destroy america.

  1. All the bad guys will still have them

  2. Wild animals will multiply and eat all of our crops

  3. I will be out of a job

  4. I won’t get any free meat during deer season

I had to chime in on children and guns. What Big John said is absolutely correct–some of the problem is the mystique that surrounds guns because of people’s “We gotta lock them away and keep them out of sight” attitude. The other problem that leads to this is people’s tendancy to have kids but then totally reject that they then have a responsiblity to raise them.

As a child, I had access to guns and ammunition at will. Never shot anybody. Never thought of guns of anything that was off limits, so I didn’t really think about them at all. I was taught by my Dad how to use a gun safely–not a police officer or any other government official and a hell of lot more qualified than most. At my high school in Alabama (in the '80s), it was common during the fall/winter for teenagers like myself to have a gun in a window rack in their truck parked in the lot. Sure there were conflicts and we had fights from time to time, but nobody ever got shot. (Eventually the school adopted a policy of no guns in vehicles, which only served to make us have to go home before hunting.)

My children have been exposed to guns their whole lives and pay little attention to them. Hell, they would rather plunder in my tool chest than gun cabinet (Oh shit! I don’t have a license for my nail gun!). My 12 year old son has his own shotgun and knows how to use it safely. I have no concerns that in 4 to 6 years he will go on some sort of a rampage (at least not with a gun).

The problem with kids and guns today is the parenting (or lack thereof), not the guns or access to them. Obviously, a five year old shouldn’t be allowed to play with a gun or have access to guns and ammo, but I don’t consider a 15 year old exactly a kid in all respects. Does anybody honestly think that a teenager could not find a way to gain access to a gun locker if he wanted to bad enough? Would I want guns in vehicles at schools today–hell no, because my kids will be one of the few that were brought up with any knowledge that didn’t come from television (where, by the way, the news media irrespsonsibly glorifieds the school shooters). So many kids are raised in multiple housholds or without both parents and with changing or non-existent rules that they never develop a respect for any kind of authority.

Our society has come to the point that individuals will not accept responsbility for anything. Unfortunately, in the absence of consistent parenting, this is what our children are being taught from birth. Hell, like telling a lie too many times, most people actually believe that they are not responsible for their own actions. Blame it on somebody else. It is especiallly convenient when you can blame it on an inanimate object like a gun. (Kind of ironic that a gun is the most efficient form of defense men have, but it can’t defend itself against these false allegations.)

It was also mentioned here that people feel like gun violence is less likely to happen in their suburban neighborhoods than in the low income inner city areas, after which their were discussion over this being a racial issue. Look, read the paper, look at crime statistics in any part of this country, go down there yourself and spend a Saturday night sitting in a dark place listening for gun fire. If you don’t accept this as fact then you are experiencing a similar denial to what I was talking about above and you should seek professional help. (It’s a coincidence, I’m sure, but these areas statistically have a less stable family structure and consequently inferior parenting.)

Looking back over this, I realize that I’m rambling a bit, but I hope my point is somewhat clear. Flame away, because I’m right.