Gun Control

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

The cultural debate is an issue that should be looked at. The culture of violence in the US comparable to the rest of the world on a per capita basis. How is it that Europe of all places ( a non-homogenous society where violence has historically scarred all of the countries) can have lower rates of gun violence per capita as opposed to the US?

I am not discussing the culture of the right to defend one’s self, or the right to bear arms for that matter what is need is a more thorough discussion on the US’s culture of violence and the desire to hurt people on mass.

Could it be that the US learned a different lesson from violence historically? That through the use of arms and violent acts Americans were able to push back against oppressive regimes while Europe as a whole learned what it meant to be the victim after WW2. It might be that losing and seeing terrible violence happen on one’s own soil taught Europeans a lesson that culturally the US has not learned.

22

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
We can debate gun control till we are out of breath, but something else is going on that is simply not a function of the availability of guns. This psycho - and others like him - acted out some massive death fantasy that seems to be occurring with more frequency.

I don’t pretend to psychoanalyze these maniacs, but for some reason, the desire to just go kill someone who wronged you isn’t in vogue - there must be a stage, a huge body count of people unrelated to a narrow personal grudge, and often a blaze of glory.

Guns have nothing to do with this impulse or its troubling increasing frequency. True, more advanced weapons can enable the killer to raise the body count faster, but such an argument is irrelevant to yesterday’s massacre based on the facts we have and the kinds of weapons he used.

I don’t know if we can “cure” these impulses, but we would wise to focus on them. What drives them? Ordinary murderous impulses (which are awful, but let’s face it, “normal” in the human condition) jacked up and enhanced by the need for attention in a world more driven by instantaneous attention than it ever has been? Increasing social atomization? Creeping nihilism?

I don’t have the right answers, and I don’t pretend to, but our time is better spent asking these questions rather than about gun control. The impulse to do this is the true instrument of death here, not a firearm.[/quote]

If I honestly thought banning guns would stop this kind of thing I would scream at the top of my lungs to ban them. Sick individuals are going to find a way to carry out sick plans. Do we ban airplanes because of 9/11? Ban knives because of stabbings? Ban anything that could be used as a weapon (which essentially ANYTHING can)?

Why start with the weapon used instead of the mind used and what caused this mind to do that? Do any anti-gun people honestly think this guy would have killed no one had guns never existed? Do you think murder, death, and war began with the invention of gunpowder?

23

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
The more well-armed you are, the more well-armed your State will have to be.
[/quote]
why?[/quote]

because a State is, by nature and definition, a local (quasi-)monopoly on violence.
So a state has to be more well-armed than its citizenry. Or else it can’t enforce its rule and ensure its monopoly, and it’s not a State at all.

Give weapons to a group of citizens, you’ve got a militia.
Give more weapons to a larger group of citizens, and you will soon have a mafia.
Give them even more (and bigger) weapons, they will start to take yours, and you will start to call them “government”.

“Government” is simply the name given to the more well-armed group in an area.

[/quote]

I agree with you, but as long as the gov. has F-22s and Abrams tanks, I don’t think they need to worry about taking away our AR-15s in order to enforce it’s rule.

24

[quote]Raging_Teddy wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
The more well-armed you are, the more well-armed your State will have to be.
[/quote]
why?[/quote]

because a State is, by nature and definition, a local (quasi-)monopoly on violence.
So a state has to be more well-armed than its citizenry. Or else it can’t enforce its rule and ensure its monopoly, and it’s not a State at all.

Give weapons to a group of citizens, you’ve got a militia.
Give more weapons to a larger group of citizens, and you will soon have a mafia.
Give them even more (and bigger) weapons, they will start to take yours, and you will start to call them “government”.

“Government” is simply the name given to the more well-armed group in an area.

[/quote]

I agree with you, but as long as the gov. has F-22s and Abrams tanks, I don’t think they need to worry about taking away our AR-15s in order to enforce it’s rule.[/quote]

Indeed.
Historically, the american “empire” never had to use gun control to enforce its rule. Because it had the opportunity to use technological progress instead.

In the “old continent”, it’s another story, precisely because it’s an older story.

25

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings.

26

It’s impossible to protect all of these schools with a police force, so why not let them protect themselves?

sp edit

27

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings. [/quote]

You’re right. Teachers can’t carry guns because all schools are designated as “Gun Free Zones”-- that’s a law to protect all the kids, you know.

28

Culture must be the key. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

Harvard Injury Control Research Center
Homicide

  1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

  1. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

  1. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

  1. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

29

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings. [/quote]

If you want to prevent these kind of events, you don’t need to give weapons to teachers. Nor to confiscate everyone’s weapons.
You just need to make sure that schools are really “gun-free” zones.

If you can do it with airports, it should not be that hard to do it with schools.

30

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings. [/quote]

If you want to prevent these kind of events, you don’t need to give weapons to teachers. Nor to confiscate everyone’s weapons.
You just need to make sure that schools are really “gun-free” zones.

If you can do it with airports, it should not be that hard to do it with schools.

[/quote]

You know how much security there is at airports to make them “gun-feee”? A LOT. You know how many more schools there are in America than airports? A LOT. The kind of security it takes to realistically make every school a “gun free” is simply unaffordable and not going to happen.

31

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings. [/quote]

If you want to prevent these kind of events, you don’t need to give weapons to teachers. Nor to confiscate everyone’s weapons.
You just need to make sure that schools are really “gun-free” zones.

If you can do it with airports, it should not be that hard to do it with schools.

[/quote]

You know how much security there is at airports to make them “gun-feee”? A LOT. You know how many more schools there are in America than airports? A LOT. The kind of security it takes to realistically make every school a “gun free” is simply unaffordable and not going to happen. [/quote]

obviously.
but i tend to think that simple things should be tried before doing anything more radical, one way or the other.

eg : the door of my classroom can’t be opened from the outside without a unique key.
Does it protect me and the kids against every danger in existence ? No, obviously not.
But it’s simple and it’s better than nothing.

Metal detectors, video cameras and a few competent people would be a start too.

32

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings. [/quote]

If you want to prevent these kind of events, you don’t need to give weapons to teachers. Nor to confiscate everyone’s weapons.
You just need to make sure that schools are really “gun-free” zones.

If you can do it with airports, it should not be that hard to do it with schools.

[/quote]

You know how much security there is at airports to make them “gun-feee”? A LOT. You know how many more schools there are in America than airports? A LOT. The kind of security it takes to realistically make every school a “gun free” is simply unaffordable and not going to happen. [/quote]

obviously.
but i tend to think that simple things should be tried before doing anything more radical, one way or the other.

eg : the door of my classroom can’t be opened from the outside without a unique key.
Does it protect me and the kids against every danger in existence ? No, obviously not.
But it’s simple and it’s better than nothing.

Metal detectors, video cameras and a few competent people would be a start too.
[/quote]

Public school as prisons.

Right.

More money for ‘security’. No need for books.

Another win for homeschoolers.

33

You propose to equip every teacher with automatic weapons and you’re worried about the cost of simple secure doors.

makes perfect sense.

You already have video cameras an guards in each and every shop. Yet you think that placing a few video cameras and a guard at the entrance of your schools with suddenly transform them into prisons.

makes perfect sense.

And btw, since strawmen are free for all now : how many books a dead kid can read in a school year ?

36

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Elementary School teacher in Isreal.

“Protect Our Children” – They’re doing it right.[/quote]

I like that! talk about a hot teacher… I wonder how many school shootings they have? America would never allow teachers to carry guns at school thogh, even if it would probably prevent a lot of these shootings. [/quote]

If you want to prevent these kind of events, you don’t need to give weapons to teachers. Nor to confiscate everyone’s weapons.
You just need to make sure that schools are really “gun-free” zones.

If you can do it with airports, it should not be that hard to do it with schools.

[/quote]

You know how much security there is at airports to make them “gun-feee”? A LOT. You know how many more schools there are in America than airports? A LOT. The kind of security it takes to realistically make every school a “gun free” is simply unaffordable and not going to happen. [/quote]

obviously.
but i tend to think that simple things should be tried before doing anything more radical, one way or the other.

eg : the door of my classroom can’t be opened from the outside without a unique key.
Does it protect me and the kids against every danger in existence ? No, obviously not.
But it’s simple and it’s better than nothing.

Metal detectors, video cameras and a few competent people would be a start too.
[/quote]

Public school as prisons.

Right.

More money for ‘security’. No need for books.

Another win for homeschoolers.[/quote]

A prison designer made the blueprints for my highschool. And it sure looked like it too lol.

37

[quote]Fuzzyapple.Train wrote:
Is there not some storage law for firearms as well? As hard as they may be to enforce here in Canada you must have a trigger lock (or some kind of mechanical mechanism to prevent firing) and locked up in a gun cabinet or separate room. I bought my dad a gun case that has him have a trigger lock, breaks the barrel off the gun and the case locks as five separate points.

RCMP can knock on your door and ask “How is your gun storage today?” without notice if they suspect anything etc. It was quite easy for myself to buy a gun for my dad through the mail once I had my license to do so. However, only hunting rifles and shotguns with a five clip max only semi-auto.

What this adds to the debate, I’m not sure.[/quote]

I think something like that would be a great idea. It would also help prevent all those deaths by children who find their parents guns and play with them not fully understanding them.

I also think a psychological evaluation and a basic firearms safety course should be taken and passed before owning a firearm. Maybe something like a lenient federal standard regarding the tests and individual states can add to the standards if they like.

But I’m definitely not for an outright ban on guns.

This from the Connecticut shooting thread.

40

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Don’t ever forget the Law of Unintended Consequences. “Fixing” something today almost always leads to “breaking” something tomorrow.[/quote]

This is true and something I always try to think about. I think of it less in terms of tomorrow per say and instead as Newton’s law “To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction.”

The law of unintended consequences can describe an immediate reaction or a reaction that occurs long into the future.

I will say this regarding guns as I do see it as a cultural issue of violence over a issue of gun control.