Guantanomo a Torture Camp

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The U.N. investigators said photographic evidence - corroborated by testimony of former prisoners - showed detainees shackled, chained and hooded. Prisoners were beaten, stripped and shaved if they resisted, they said.

Doesn’t this sort of thing happen in every prison ever?

Prisoners being shackled and chained? Duh.

Prisoners being beaten IF THEY RESIST?

This means if the prisoners get physical with the guards, the guards kick their ass. Big deal.

Stripped and shaved? Never heard of a body cavity search?

This hardly means it is a “Torture Camp.”[/quote]

So far, Zap is the only one here that knows anything about prisons.

Guards roughing up prisoners in the US county jails if they resist is routine. For example:

Lockdown time- “every one of you strip and mount your matress.”

Pepper gun- a jacked up paintball gun that shoots a hard shell ball with pepper oil inside. It creates a flesh wound and spills the pepper oil inside the newly opened wound.

This is routine prison life in the US.

22

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Man you americans have some stupid pride.
Just close this mess as a gesture of good will - and reopen it secretly in Alaska.

It’s just a gesture!

Personally, I believe it’s not worse than, say, a russian detention camp in Chechnya. Or a chinese gulag. Or a North Korean orphanage. But you are the US - there goes a special responsibility with that. [/quote]

Exactly. Why do so many “conservatives” (anyone who supports this administration with no serious reservations is not a true conservative) always compare us to our enemies? The Bataan Death March? Is that the standard we’re comparing ourselves to?

23

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Man you americans have some stupid pride.
Just close this mess as a gesture of good will - and reopen it secretly in Alaska.

It’s just a gesture!

Personally, I believe it’s not worse than, say, a russian detention camp in Chechnya. Or a chinese gulag. Or a North Korean orphanage. But you are the US - there goes a special responsibility with that.

Exactly. Why do so many “conservatives” (anyone who supports this administration with no serious reservations is not a true conservative) always compare us to our enemies? The Bataan Death March? Is that the standard we’re comparing ourselves to?[/quote]

Because Americans, like everyone else in history, have always committed atrocities in war.

American atrocities are typically much milder than our enemies.

We often prosecute those that commit atrocities.

The focus on the low grade atrocities in this war has been politically motivated bullshit.

We have to continually point out that in spite of our problems we are still far more humane than our enemies because many in the media and many of the leftist posters on this board tend to ignore this.

24

you know, when South Africans did this kinda crap, and used the same kind of excuses, they called it apartheid and made santions against us. Funny eh?

25

How about a thread titled "Compare and contrast the treatment of Islamist in American captivity with American captives in Islamists captivity.

When I see equality of treatment of each others prisoners. Then I will worry.

Meaning, when US soldiers slice the throats of, behead, and eviscerate Islamist captives, then we will have a problem.

Innocent American contractors/workers (that I’ve even seen video documentation of) that were captured by the “insurgents” were not merely photographed in a “pyramid” naked, had German Shepherds bark at them, were made to wear dirty underwear on thier head and forced to wear a leash, or otherwise knocked around some. They were tied up and fucking BUTCHERED! Thier throats were cut but did they stop there! NO! They kept cutting until the head was removed from the body. Then they held the dripping head up for the camera!

When we start doing this kind of shit to THEM, I will worry!

Let’s talk about how Americans are treated by the “insurgents” when captured!

Who would you rather be? The American captured by the terrorists or an “insurgent” at GITMO?

Who would have a longer lifespan?

Do you think Christians would be given BIBLES while in the captivity of terrorists.

Before anyone calls out US soldiers for torture. Open your fucking eyes and think about the Americans that were beheaded alive in captivity. Think about the burned contractors bodies slug up on the bridge. Think about US soldiers dragged behind trucks. Or just THINK period!

26

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Man you americans have some stupid pride.
Just close this mess as a gesture of good will - and reopen it secretly in Alaska.

It’s just a gesture![/quote]

Exellent point. That wold be a very clever political move.

27

“forced-feeding of detainees on hunger strike must be assessed as amounting to torture”

MSN reported a similar story to this one. The quote above was issued by the UN inspectors.

28

[quote]aburke22 wrote:
“forced-feeding of detainees on hunger strike must be assessed as amounting to torture”

MSN reported a similar story to this one. The quote above was issued by the UN inspectors.

MSN [/quote]

Amazing.

29

Blair: Guantanamo is an anomaly

Tony Blair today said the US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba was an “anomaly” that would have to be “dealt with”.

Nine British nationals who were detained there have now been flown back to the UK and released without charge.

None of the current inmates at Guantanamo is British, but Amnesty International believes eight were resident in the UK, and that some have relatives here.

[…]

Yesterday, three long-term UK residents (though not British citizens) got the go-ahead to seek a high court order requiring the foreign secretary, Jack Straw, to petition for their release from the base.

A judge in London said allegations of torture at the facility meant the detainees and their families living in the UK could make the case that the British government was under an obligation to act on their behalf.

[…]

Interesting, how even here in the UK - the US’s staunchest ally - there seems to be strong doubt on this issue.

I personally would really like to finally see anyone out there being freed or convicted by some kind of tribunal - even a “kangaroo court” of a military tribunal. For 4 years, people have been held there without due process - that’s bad enough, with or without torture.

Makkun

30

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Perhaps we should start a thread with the following title:

Why Does Fighting Irish and His Cohorts Hate Their Country?

As our former great U.N. Ambassador Jeanne Kirkpatrick said a long while ago about you ultra-left wing Socialist Liberals:

YOU ALWAYS BLAME AMERICA FIRST!

Well, I say to you:

God bless our President George W. Bush and may God bless the United States of America!

Thank you to all of the troops on the field in all foregin fields. There are those of us who appreciate you and support the mission that you are on.

God bless the troops!

Free thinking isn’t your forte huh?

Its cause and effect brother. People don’t get pissed at you if you don’t start shit first. South America wouldn’t be electing all leftist governments if we didn’t fuck with them for the last 20 years.

The Muslims wouldn’t be pissed if we didn’t steal land and make Israel.

Agree or disagree, these are conflicts we have started. And these are conflicts that my buddies are fighting- my generation, not yours. Fighting for the age old greed, power, and wealth. Stick your head in the sand and pray with all your might. That doesn’t change the world around you. Although I suspect you’re too old, too conservative, and too comfortable to realize that.[/quote]

Irish,

In the midst of your anger and hostility toward me, you only proved my point.

YOU DO ALWAYS BLAME AMERICA FIRST!

We did this, we did that, America did this, wah wah wah…you sound like a baby!

As for “your generation” – listen kid, if it weren’t for my generation and my father’s generation who fought several really big wars for this country and the world – YOUR GENERATION WOULDN’T EXIST!

Stop hating your country! America is the best country on the face of the planet. That is why everyone is risking life and limb to get over here legally or illegally. Other nations build fences to keep their people in, we may have to put one up to keep some out so we can absorb them better.

Now, take time to think really think about what I am saying. I don’t mind your hositility toward me, but to your country, now that’s not the American Way.

Take care…

31

Some of you guys just don’t get it. Yes, other countries have similar facilities. Some, far worse ones.
But the US is trying to lead the world in human rights. The US is trying to show the world the way, with its attempts to spread democracy and freedom. With respect to Gitmo, the US has to do better. How can it expect other countries to to listen to it when the images of Gitmo are in the public domain, regardless of whether you think those interred there deserve it? The US has to hold itself to higher standards.

Guantanomo must close.

32

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Some of you guys just don’t get it. Yes, other countries have similar facilities. Some, far worse ones.
But the US is trying to lead the world in human rights. The US is trying to show the world the way, with its attempts to spread democracy and freedom. With respect to Gitmo, the US has to do better. How can it expect other countries to to listen to it when the images of Gitmo are in the public domain, regardless of whether you think those interred there deserve it? The US has to hold itself to higher standards.

Guantanomo must close.[/quote]

Yes, we should close these “torture camps” and place these nice terrorists in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. How about room service for them?

Give me a break…

33

These animals have nothing but hatred in their hearts for the West and our way of life. I could careless if a few of them took a mild beating.
And the UN should learn not to bite the hand that feeds it because an extremely high percentage of UN funding comes from one country, THE USA.
I’m Canadian and I am thankful that our new conservative government has pledged to help repair our broken relationship with America.

34

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Okay I’m mad now…

NO ONE CAN TELL ME GEORGE BUSH DIDN’T KNOW THIS WAS GOING ON!

HE PROBABLY ORDERED THIS!

EVIL FREAKING REPUBLICANS.

(There can we end the thread now?)[/quote]

Even if he did know this was going on what makes him evil???

What the UN is crying about would be considered five star treatment if any other country were holding the detainees. DO you think if American soldiers were captured by Middle Easterners, North Koreans, or any other f’d up nation they would be treated with even one tenth the dignity??? I don’t.

35

[quote]engerland66 wrote:
Jack Bauer will never let it happen.[/quote]
First sensible thing anyone’s said in this thread.

[quote]Jack Bauer said:
Look kid, the only reason you’re conscious is because I don’t feel like carrying you[/quote]

36

why is feeding the detainees ‘torture?’

is there some inalienable right that i missed saying these guys have the right to kill themselves to make us look bad?

We are responsible for taking care of them. Their choices are the spoon or the tubes…

should we let them die? If we let them die, we get shit on. If we feed them, we get shit on.

Now dont get me wrong…i want the people in gitmo to be charged or release, but this ‘amounting to torture’ shit is all BS.

37

[quote]makkun wrote:
Interesting, how even here in the UK - the US’s staunchest ally - there seems to be strong doubt on this issue.[/quote]

I don’t know exactly what (if anything) this proves, the UK pre-July has demonstrated a pretty ineffectual response to terrorism, there seems to be too much brow beating going on from the so-called shadow cabinet.

The trial of Abu Hamza is a good example, I think it was the Economist that recently made the point that until the US were looking for Hamza to be extradited there was systemic procrastination about what to do with Ol Cap’n Hook.

All that said, the fact that it was Blair who made the comment is significant.

My own thoughts on Guantanamo is that while there may be some extreme shit going on there, such measures are probably necessary to gain any sort of useable insight into the way that these terrorist organisations are structured and orientated. While it appears there have been instances of people being detained wrongly/mistakenly/unlawfully/whatever and this is unfortunate, I think that ultimately it’s a case of not being able to make an omelette without breaking a few heads, I mean eggs.

38

C Dizzle,

[quote]C Dizzle wrote:
[…]
I don’t know exactly what (if anything) this proves, the UK pre-July has demonstrated a pretty ineffectual response to terrorism, there seems to be too much brow beating going on from the so-called shadow cabinet.

The trial of Abu Hamza is a good example, I think it was the Economist that recently made the point that until the US were looking for Hamza to be extradited there was systemic procrastination about what to do with Ol Cap’n Hook.

All that said, the fact that it was Blair who made the comment is significant.

My own thoughts on Guantanamo is that while there may be some extreme shit going on there, such measures are probably necessary to gain any sort of useable insight into the way that these terrorist organisations are structured and orientated. While it appears there have been instances of people being detained wrongly/mistakenly/unlawfully/whatever and this is unfortunate, I think that ultimately it’s a case of not being able to make an omelette without breaking a few heads, I mean eggs.[/quote]

I agree that there can always be improvements how democracies deal with citizens that defy them - and the UK is no exception. But when it comes to balancing civil liberties and security, I’ll always go for the civil liberties - my home country’s history (Germany) is a good example of where this balance has been off more than once.

And this is why, even if the detainees in Guantanamo were treated absolutely correctly (the International Comitte of the Red Cross - the only ones who can actually see the detainees - and the UN don’t seem to be thinking so), it is still wrong to put away people for 4 years (however bad they are suspected to be) with no chance to be represented like normal criminals or rights according to Geneva as POWs.

Well a state can do that off course, and I agree that many others do that and more - but then it looses its right to claim to be a champion of democracy and liberty. The US has had that choice for a few years now, and even close allies have voiced doubt about Gitmo. I think it’s time for them to make a decision where the country stands really - referring to another thread, I would really feel sorry for all those young soldiers who die for those ideals, if their country’s administration rids itself of them for a false sense of security.

Makkun

39

All fair points dude. The Bush administration dxefinitely capitalised on the post September 11th bloodlust to get a few things through that perhaps would not have got over the line otherwise. But then they didn’t have Jack Bauer to sort that shit out.

When life gave Jack Bauer lemons, he used them to kill terrorists. Jack Bauer fucking hates lemonade.

also,

Jack Bauer is the leading cause of death in young middle eastern men.

Now, to go and watch CTU storm the airport. To the Bauermobile

40

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Some of you guys just don’t get it. Yes, other countries have similar facilities. Some, far worse ones.
But the US is trying to lead the world in human rights. The US is trying to show the world the way, with its attempts to spread democracy and freedom. With respect to Gitmo, the US has to do better. How can it expect other countries to to listen to it when the images of Gitmo are in the public domain, regardless of whether you think those interred there deserve it? The US has to hold itself to higher standards.

Guantanomo must close.[/quote]

Exactly. Did it not occur to any of you guys that Guantanamo does enormous damage to the U.S. in the Arab world?

Just like in battling communism for fifty years, this war is at its base one of ideas. Not a lot of Muslims are going to buy into the Western vision of democracy when our actions are an Al Qaeda propagandist’s wet dream.