T Nation

GSP = P4P Strongest. Really?


#1

Taken from here:
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/gsp-thiago-able-dominate-his-strengh-not-gonna-work-against-me-1007598/

and GSP's Blog here:
http://stpierre.yardbarker.com/

"Now I can snatch 100 lbs. 3 repetitions with 1 arm, which is something that I never thought I was ever going to be able to do when I first start training with Jonathan Chaimberg because I was struggling to lift like a 60 lb over my head and now I can do 3 reps with 100 lbs. I got so much stronger than I was"

People on Sherdog are saying everything from GSP has to be the P4P strongest fighter ever to... GSP has to be on chemical assistance! 100 Pounds is freakishly strong. If that's so, I'm freakishly strong and probably on HGH since I did 3 dumbbell snatches per arm with 90 pounds last week and weigh a whole lot less than St. Pierre. By that standard, a lot of guys here must be comic book superheroes.

I'm not sure what puzzles me more. That people believe that a 100 pound dumbbell snatch is really strong or that one of the top pound for pound professional fighters can only dumbbell snatch 100 pounds.


#2

100 lb snatch is quite impressive in my opinion. He trains 4 martial arts, and conditioning at a world class level. He supplements with lifting weights and is able to lift so heavy. That is what is so impressive. I am sure if his primary focus was lifting, he would be able to much much heavier.

It is not at all surprising that the top pound for pound fighter cannot lift huge amounts of weight. Martial arts is very different from power lifting. Many great fighters have never even lifted heavy weights.


#3

GSP’s strength and athleticism in the cage is second to none. I don’t see why in the debate of P4P strength in MMA his “snatch” even matters. If we were talking about P4P strength in terms of weightlifting, there’s a lot of really powerful guys in the weight room that are only B class MMA fighters.


#4

[quote]XiaoNio wrote:People on Sherdog are saying everything from GSP has to be the P4P strongest fighter ever to… GSP has to be on chemical assistance! 100 Pounds is freakishly strong. If that’s so, I’m freakishly strong and probably on HGH since I did 3 dumbbell snatches per arm with 90 pounds last week and weigh a whole lot less than St. Pierre. By that standard, a lot of guys here must be comic book superheroes.

I’m not sure what puzzles me more. That people believe that a 100 pound dumbbell snatch is really strong or that one of the top pound for pound professional fighters can only dumbbell snatch 100 pounds.[/quote]

Are you also a world champion professional mixed martial artist?

Context is everything.

Those weights are indeed impressive for someone who has also earned a BJJ black belt, and is current UFC champion.


#5

Not Impressive.

Here’s an older clip with other feats of strength. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPDVEWWP4KU

Again, decent but no way strongest p4p.

Besides… Akiyama’s coming for him.


#6

[quote]FutureGL wrote:
Not Impressive.

Here’s an older clip with other feats of strength. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPDVEWWP4KU

Again, decent but no way strongest p4p.

Besides… Akiyama’s coming for him.[/quote]

If we’re talking about how much weights he’s pushing, he’s probably not up there in the top 10 of MMA p4p strongest guys. But who gives a flying … about how much weight he’s pushing. If we’re talking about strength in the cage in terms of overpowering his opponents,being in better condition and ragdolling them, then GSP is probably up there in the top 5.


#7

If I said one of the best wide receivers or running back could only squat 315 or power clean 200 pounds, would you feel the same or be surprised? Sure there’s more to athletic performance than weight room numbers, but you do expect some kind of quantifiable strength. There’s a reason why most great players have at least decent combine performance.

I realize St. Pierre doesn’t exactly have to powerlifter or Olympic lifter numbers, but I’m surprised at that number. I’m also surprised that snatching 100 pounds via dumbbell qualifies as strong. At 165 pounds and a mediocre former olympic weightlifter and jiu jitsu artist, I’m surprised I’m anywhere close to a guy’s strength level who is 30 pounds bigger, has a professional strength coach, nutritionist and spends all his time working out. I realize most of that time is spent training skills, but I’m pretty sure he still spends more time in the weight room than I do.

Mostly I’m shocked that people think dumbbell snatching 100 pounds is some kind of ludicrous feat or saying it’s an unnaturally high amount of weight.

Anyway, to show what I mean, here’s a clip about Vernon Davis at UMCP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqZsg8EJQb4
I realize he’s way bigger than GSP, but his lifts, 40 time and vertical are more on the side of unbelievable and ridiculous which is what I’d assume an elite athlete to be. If you took any NFL player who plays a speed and agility position, I bet their relative strength and conditioning would be off the charts. The same goes for any NCAA Div I wrestler.

That’s why I’m a little surprised at that number and the idea over at sherdog that it’s freakish. The weighted chinups posted since are definitely much more in line with what I’d expect.


#8

Akiyama is a middleweight bud.


#9

[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
If I said one of the best wide receivers or running back could only squat 315 or power clean 200 pounds, would you feel the same or be surprised? Sure there’s more to athletic performance than weight room numbers, but you do expect some kind of quantifiable strength. There’s a reason why most great players have at least decent combine performance.

I realize St. Pierre doesn’t exactly have to powerlifter or Olympic lifter numbers, but I’m surprised at that number. I’m also surprised that snatching 100 pounds via dumbbell qualifies as strong. At 165 pounds and a mediocre former olympic weightlifter and jiu jitsu artist, I’m surprised I’m anywhere close to a guy’s strength level who is 30 pounds bigger, has a professional strength coach, nutritionist and spends all his time working out. I realize most of that time is spent training skills, but I’m pretty sure he still spends more time in the weight room than I do.

Mostly I’m shocked that people think dumbbell snatching 100 pounds is some kind of ludicrous feat or saying it’s an unnaturally high amount of weight.

Anyway, to show what I mean, here’s a clip about Vernon Davis at UMCP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqZsg8EJQb4
I realize he’s way bigger than GSP, but his lifts, 40 time and vertical are more on the side of unbelievable and ridiculous which is what I’d assume an elite athlete to be. If you took any NFL player who plays a speed and agility position, I bet their relative strength and conditioning would be off the charts. The same goes for any NCAA Div I wrestler.

That’s why I’m a little surprised at that number and the idea over at sherdog that it’s freakish. The weighted chinups posted since are definitely much more in line with what I’d expect.[/quote]

And is Vernon Davis among the elite NFL tight ends???..ummm…NO!

None of this really matters…comparing NFL athletes to MMA athletes is a waste of time…considering the huge differences in the nature of the sports…AND most importantly,the demands and training of the athletes.

If you’re worried about the ideas over at Sherdog…maybe you should have discussed it there…just sayin.


#10

Its my understanding that when Hughes was dominating the welterweight division he was the strongest guy ever in that division.I am more able to believe that because of his lifestyle and background but I dont know about GSP.As far as I know Dana and Rogan have been saying that Alves is the Strongest.


#11

california Law summed it up nicely.

the second thing is your using sherdog posters as any kind of reference
negates any kind of logic you think you have.

third, do you know how it feels to even lift weights at all after training 30 some odd hours a week.?
I did not think so.

Lastly we should ignore this- its a weightlifting site, that happens to have a little combat sports section
and evry one who has ever moved any iron likes to jump in.

kmc


#12

I used Vernon Davis because there was a youtube video up of his training. There’s not really a lot of video posted of actual NFL stars training, unless you count TO and his rubberbands or Reggie Bush doing speed drills and dumbbell benching. Anyway, I’d say being a first round draft pick would probably make him at least pretty good. Also saying the more elite NFL players aren’t at similar strength and conditioning standards would be a pretty big assumption.

Anyway, all I’m saying is that for a guy heralded as the most athletic and strongest at 170 as well as future hall of famer and potential 2nd coming of Christ, I’d expect him to be a bit stronger. It’s not like he’s BJ Penn, showing up to fights with a Buddha belly and Joe Rogan saying “When GSP is focused and in shape, he’s a major threat”. GSP always comes in shape and produces athletically dominating performances.

Don’t get me wrong, GSP is one of my favorite fighters. But I was assuming physically dominating performance was usually correlated with good weight numbers. I have a hard time believing someone at that elite level has an issue with that weight. Especially given his plyo performance and strength (as previously shown). Hell, here’s Matt Hughes 1 arm push pressing 100 in a hard hat and jeans. He was supposed to be strong and GSP is supposedly a whole lot stronger.

I might not know about training 30 hours a week, but I do know a little bit about working 60 hours a week, training martial arts 15 hours a week and lifting weights. It’s nothing like being a garbage man to pay gym fees, but hey, I’m no UFC champ. I’m not trying to be nasty or anything, I’m just curious how it works out like that.


#13

This is a really dumb thread


#14

Why are you mentioning the NFL at all?
I must be missing something- that is comparing apples and oranges-
college and HS ball coaches push weights as an agenda quite hard
I dont get the analogy.

He is a professional fighter.
not a weightlifter- that I why I busted balls about training for 30+ hours
every jonnhy big bench is suprised at how “little” fighting atheletes lifts are
and compare themselves to them the one area that they can do or outdo a different kind of athlete.

Your martial arts “training” is not at the same level ,nor are you being paid to do it,
so I would not expect you to have the same volume of work that someone like GSP or whom ever does.

strength with weights have nothing to do with athletic performance with fighters.
strength training for them is just another thing to check off of the list.

what these guys move in the gym has little to no relevance
when you compete at the top every body is strong-
strong where it counts,

on the mat, ring or cage- strength is not measurable with a mark.
what you do on the deadlift platform, squat rack or bench does not translate.

Most boxers do not lift. Most great great BJJ types do not lift.
I know this is a weighlifing/bodybuilding site, but gym lifts for fighters just do not matter.

its not something that can translate- even though every one at home can evaluate how they stack up.

kmc


#15

It’s been my experience that where there’s smoke, there’s fire. When I’ve rolled with somebody who was strong on the mat, they’ve been strong in the gym. I mean, there’s probably a reason why every wrestler I know does power cleans and zercher squats.

Back when GSP beat BJ Penn, everyone said, “oh look GSP, an example of a great well rounded athlete. He works out, not like BJ Penn. Look at how much stronger he is”. It’s just that to me with this example, it doesn’t seem like the numbers add up.

It’s not like I’m talking about Jake Shields or Marcelo Garcia. I realize martial arts and fighting arts are very technical. But many of GSP’s wins are often credited to being a superlative athlete or the stronger fighter. I’m guessing, it’s the expectation that someone who’s supposedly big, strong, athletic and the division’s best wrestler would have some ridiculous relative strength.

According to some videos he really does. His trainer says he also works on olympic lifting. Looking at some vids of GSP doing plyo and some strength work, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s really a lot stronger than is let on. Or perhaps just really bad at one arm snatches.

As far as the NFL, there seems to be a pretty reasonable correlation between how players perform in the gym with how they perform on field. If you’re struggling to squat or bench 225, I can’t see you being successful at any position besides kicker. A similar analogy can probably be drawn between baseball players, bob sledders, wrestlers, wushu players and capoeiristas. While all are obviously skill sports, I can think of many examples where being tremendously strong and well conditioned has helped great athletes.


#16

[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
It’s been my experience that where there’s smoke, there’s fire. When I’ve rolled with somebody who was strong on the mat, they’ve been strong in the gym. I mean, there’s probably a reason why every wrestler I know does power cleans and zercher squats.

Back when GSP beat BJ Penn, everyone said, “oh look GSP, an example of a great well rounded athlete. He works out, not like BJ Penn. Look at how much stronger he is”. It’s just that to me with this example, it doesn’t seem like the numbers add up.

It’s not like I’m talking about Jake Shields or Marcelo Garcia. I realize martial arts and fighting arts are very technical. But many of GSP’s wins are often credited to being a superlative athlete or the stronger fighter. I’m guessing, it’s the expectation that someone who’s supposedly big, strong, athletic and the division’s best wrestler would have some ridiculous relative strength. According to some videos he really does. His trainer says he also works on olympic lifting. Looking at some vids of GSP doing plyo and some strength work, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s really a lot stronger than is let on. Or perhaps just really bad at one arm snatches.

As far as the NFL, there seems to be a pretty reasonable correlation between how players perform in the gym with how they perform on field. If you’re struggling to squat or bench 225, I can’t see you being successful at any position besides kicker. A similar analogy can probably be drawn between baseball players, bob sledders, wrestlers, wushu players and capoeiristas. While all are obviously skill sports, I can think of many examples where being tremendously strong and well conditioned has helped great athletes.[/quote]

Xio- next vortex monthly challenge, single arm snatch ha


#17

I dont want to talk about the NFL this is combat sports - not espn.
I dont know why you keep mentioning it
or trying to bring up things like the combine as anything more than
a college coach’s salary justification.

again you are missing the point
the numbers arent going to add up.
he is a fighter not a weight lifter- of any kind.

his , and most fighters’ strength training is another thing on the list of shit to do.
its a long list.

do your superior numbers- make you a better athlete then he might be?
or a better fighter?
so what your point?

maybe you should rethink your question- as to why the numnbers dont add up
instead of saying how weak this pro- athlete is.

this tells me you have never seen any college athletic or serious strength training happening.
Next you will critique his form.

lifting- for wrestlers past the full or power clean is realitively new like less then 10 years new.
much less.
For years american college and european wrestling in particular did not endorse much if any
of a strength training regimen

I can tell you that first hand.

I can also tell you that some people like John Smith, Tom and Terry Brands , or Zeke Jones
none of which are particularly strong- or look like specimens of any type and none weigh
above 150lbs, will make 99.9 percent of the population feel weak when they compete with them.

More so for BJJ do you think Eddie Bravo is a very strong in the weight room?
Let him squeeze you and youll see.
In fact the entire practice of BJJ- is designed by a non athlete for not athletic person.

GSP happens to be a freak athelete. Like a super freak.

He used to Roll at Renzo’s here in NYC. And I knew plenty of people
who found him quite strong, and very powerful.

Is there a correlation with some strength training and performance
sure, but not as much as some strength trainers would like you to believe.

when you say there is a correlation between gym strength and matt strength
I will say what I always say, up your level of competition and you will find
“very weak” people who will punish and overpower most.

I can also tell you first hand when you are training and competing at a high enough level- youll find the numbers you can put up in the gym wont matter.

Now lets turn this equation on its head-

how many ELITE , yes elite olympic lifters or other highly skilled specialized sports lets say
javelin throwing or even diving- both sports involving a high level of motor skills
can hit a heavy bag, or a person, with any kind of good result?
Kicking ?
lets say going for a simple clinch and basic judo throw?
maybe even more basic- a jab and a right cross?

see how silly it sounds?
probably not.

but thats the point.

I keep forgetting no- one opinion is ever changed on the internet.

kmc


#18

Another thing to consider when using lifting numbers to validate strength levels - I think this came from Thibaudeau - really all you’re measuring is an individual’s ability to lift a given weight in a certain lift. Though a decent barometer for personal progress, it is hardly an argument ender to take a cross section of max lifts and then make a judgement regarding a fighter’s overall strength levels in relation to his counterparts. Too many other variables to consider regarding a fighter’s strength.

That last sounds more convoluted than I intended, but what I mean is, if we’re talking overall strength, is lifting numbers really the thing to consider regarding fighters? Fedor probably can’t squat as much as Bob Sapp, but he probably generates more power through his center mass when he performs a hip throw. BJ can’t bench as much as Phil Baroni, but he hits harder. Gnome sain?


#19

shit. 30 hours a week training, with probably only 5-6 (if that) hours of that being weight training, that’s amazing really, considering all the other crap they do.

Run
Skills (Bjj/wrestling)

Sprint
Skills (striking)

Lift
Run

just guessing how a day goes for a PRO-FIGHTER

Interviews/eat/sleep/shit/fuck/drive…hahaha…after doing all of that stuff i’d be damned i had enough energy to do snatches…haha


#20

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Another thing to consider when using lifting numbers to validate strength levels - I think this came from Thibedau - really all you’re measuring is an individual’s ability to lift a given weight in a certain lift. Though a decent barometer for personal progress, it is hardly an argument ender to take a cross section of max lifts and then make a judgement regarding a fighter’s overall strength levels in relation to his counterparts. Too many other variables to consider regarding a fighter’s strength.
[/quote]

That’s more along the lines of what I was thinking. Although given most of their wins are by knockout, I have a hard time seeing Phil Baroni or Bob Sapp as weak hitters.

As far as weight room numbers, I’ll bet GSP is actually a pretty strong guy all around or at the very least no slouch. Would anyone say Brock Lesnar, a physically dominant wrestler is only strong on the mat? Or would you guess he’s spent more than a little time lifting?