T Nation

Grow! and A Banana = Surge?

I just purchased some Surge and Grow! (And got KILLED ON SHIPPING!) and have a question about the former. I am a poor college student so I need to use this sparingly. I figure I will only use it after hitting the weights and never after cardio. That means I use it 3 times a week, which gets about a month or so.

Since I won’t be using it after cardio to save money, is just some whey and a banana good, with a large meal 1 hour post?

Good idea. Use Surge post workout, I do and only lift three times per week. As you surmised this will extend your Surge and the Banana and Grow! after cardio will work for recovery.

Take care,

D

[quote]T-man21 wrote:
Since I won’t be using it after cardio to save money, is just some whey and a banana good, with a large meal 1 hour post?[/quote]

It’s not ideal, but seldom are most things in life.

Do the best with what you have available. If you can mix your Grow! with skim milk to boost caloric and carbohydrate content.

Gatorade and protein powder
Chocolate milk
Dextrose and protein powder
etc

T-Man, there wouldn’t be anything wrong with just following your normal diet/eating patterns following cardio and allowing yoru body to draw on stored body fat to meet any temporary caloric deficits. It’s only when someone is doing marathon training (or longer/extended practice sessions that have a high cardiovascular component) that I’ll recommend they add in added PWO starchy carbs.

Remember that the carbs in Surge are used for spiking insulin, lowering cortisol and shuttling the quick-digesting proteins to the muscles you just worked. Surge is designed to facilitate repair of the muscles you worked out and get a head start on refilling muscle glycogen. If you just did cardio, you didn’t create a stimulus for growth and don’t need to use Surge.

[quote]T-man21 wrote:
Since I won’t be using it after cardio to save money, is just some whey and a banana good, with a large meal 1 hour post?[/quote]

If the point of taking that is to increase your Glycogen storage, I don’t think that’s the way to go because the fiber in fruit slows the digestion process. However, if Glycogen restoration isn’t your reason, then what you’re taking post cardio will seem fine.

If you’re on the larger side, Glycogen restoration post cardio would be very improtant, so I think as anothe rperson pointed out, Chocolate Milk would be a better choice.

Vitargo + electrolyte works for me…

[quote]keaster wrote:
Gatorade and protein powder
Chocolate milk
Dextrose and protein powder
etc[/quote]

Yeah, I especially like the chocolate milk idea. Worked for me.

Dominator is right. Sprint work will deplete muscle glycogen. Endurance work is far less likely to deplete muscle glycogen. So I guess it depends on the type of cardio you are doing.

If refilling muscle glycogen is the goal, fruit is not your best choice because it tends to be high in fructose, a sugar that preferentially refills liver glycogen, not muscle glycogen. If the goal is refilling muscle glycogen, you want to draw on starchy carbs like oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta, quinoa, amaranth, or brown rice.

T-Man, are you reading any of John Berardi’s articles here on the site? A lot of what JB has written is very pertinent to your situation.

Only if it’s .9 banana

LOL

Old timers will know what I mean

I am in the middle of a bulk right now, but I simply couldn’t go on any longer without some cardio, for purely psychological reasons, I can still see me abs so I am fine physically. I like the idea of chocolate milk, I have heard from numerous others that is a good choice and whole foods were getting tough after cardio.

I completely forgot about fructose issue, so thank you for bringing that to my attention. I like the idea of my fat stores being used for fuel, and I only do HIIT for 20 minutes so I guess I dont need starchy carbs like Tampa Terry said. I am not really trying to replenish glycogen because I only do cardio on off days so I have all day to replenish them.

As I said before I am in a bulk and was simply worried about not getting calories. I think I can just eat normally and get the calories which is about 8 meals a day. But should I forgo my usual 1 hour post Monster shake (about 1000-1200 calories mostly from carbs) and substitute a medium carb meal instead?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
If the goal is refilling muscle glycogen, you want to draw on starchy carbs like oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta, quinoa, amaranth, or brown rice.[/quote]

TT-

Actually, this is a pretty debated topic for PW consumption. The above mentioned items are for Gycogen restoration throught the day, but there’s a current feeling that there’s enough fiber in the above mentioned foods to not get Glycogen into the bloodstream fast enough in the PW window.

The most simple of sugars seems to be the best choice PW, then 1-2 hours after that initial consumption, go back to eating the foods that you’ve mentioned. This is sort of the whole premise to Surge.

Now having said that, the above mentioned foods would be good for an individual who has high Blood Insulin levels because you don’t want to cause to great a spike.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’ve heard the chocolate milk recommendation for years. What, specifically, is there about chocolate milk that makes it a suitable PWO drink? It is simply corn syrup, sugar, and cocoa. Why then is it any better than any other liquid simple carb?[/quote]

hmmm… i do know its cheap & has more electrolytes than gatorade

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’ve heard the chocolate milk recommendation for years. What, specifically, is there about chocolate milk that makes it a suitable PWO drink? It is simply corn syrup, sugar, and cocoa. Why then is it any better than any other liquid simple carb?[/quote]

Don’t forget the milk part - that’s key. =P

I’m not saying it’s necessarily any better, but I will say that it works just as well as anything I’ve tried. It’s cheap, too, which is why it’s great for people who don’t have much money, which is why I recommended it to the OP.

Don’t you know that if you don’t use Surge PWO you will go blind and grow hair on your palms?

Good questions, D!!! (grin)

I’d definitely recommend a PWO drink like Surge (or chocolate milk) and a starchy carb P+C PWO meal following that … especially for someone who is bulking.

Even when cutting most people benefit from a PWO drink and a PWO meal with starchy carbs.

The items I listed have some fiber, yes, but they also have some health benefits (vitamins and minerals) than their more processed counterparts.

Now having said that, the above mentioned foods would be good for an individual who has high Blood Insulin levels because you don’t want to cause to great a spike.

Insulin resistance can manifest itself in different ways. It can be caused by too little production of insulin in the pancreas, or it can be insulin resistance at the cellular level. What’s cool about eating carbs PWO is that even those who are insulin resistance can eat some starchy (or starchier) carbs in the PWO meal because there’s something call non-insulin dependent glucose uptake. The muscles just seem to suck glucose up like a sponge sucks up water following resistance training. That PWO insulin sensitivity decreases (goes back to the person’s “normal” insulin resistance) over time.

I’ll generally recommend a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. It’s a measured amount of starchy carbs, not a free feeding (unmeasured amount). But instead of counting Total Carbs, you could count Net Carbs, which makes for a more level playing field when picking a starchy-type carb for your PWO meal. Net Carbs, of course, are Total Carbs minus Fiber Carbs.

pushharder, chocolate milk is a poor man’s Surge, recommended originally by JB. Milk doesn’t have a high glycemic index, but for whatever reason, it does have a relatively high insulin index.

I use whey protein powder:25 g prot., 5 grams carbs(mainly sucralose) and add 40 g maltodextrin.

It’s 90% as effective as Surge and costs me $20 for 4 training sessions a week, 2 doses(peri- and PWO)per session for a month.
I add in BCAA supp. after especially taxing sessions to aid in recovery.

After trying many different strategies against the awesomeness of surge i’ve found this to be the most bang for the buck. The obvious missing ingredient is whey-hydrolysate and it’s what gives surge that extra 10-15% percent against anything else and is really much more expensive than what the cost of Surge reflects.

I wish i had that extra 10$ a month in my supplement budget to go with Surge but unfortunately an extra 5 lbs. lean meat is higher on my consumption hierarchy.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’ve heard the chocolate milk recommendation for years. What, specifically, is there about chocolate milk that makes it a suitable PWO drink? It is simply corn syrup, sugar, and cocoa. Why then is it any better than any other liquid simple carb?[/quote]

Chocolate Milk, with a 3:1 carb to protein ratio has shown to be a very good post recovery drink.

The carbs or sugar from the chocolate can reach the bloodstream rather quickly and easily, making this a good choice PW, and even during training for that matter.

In the same study, they theorized that the protein found in milk was able to be used by the body quicker than the other protein sources found in recovery drinks. The theory is that since the milk is from a natural source, the body is more able to use it and break it down quicker, but this is all theory and not proven.

Also in the same study, the milk was found to have a better electrolyte profile than both Gatorade and Endurox making this a very good choice to even use during training, provided that the training is over 45 minutes in duration.

My only concen with recommending CM is that some people can’t tolerate the milk in the gut on an emepty stomach either while training or immediately PW. Aside from that, CM is a very good PW recovery beverage.

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