Gross Motor Skills

[zecarlo]

I think you completely misunderstand my point. There are better options to escape the mount than biting or trying to attack the groin. You can say it’s some BJJ mindset but I can say the opposite: that believing in the effectiveness of certain techniques, such as biting, vs grappling situations are more effective, or just as effective, as using a grappling technique. And when that less effective technique fails, and it escalates the violence, the response from the person in a superior position will reflect the escalated violence attempted against him.

If my choice in a confrontation is bite or die, then of course I will do whatever I can to survive. But if I’m in that position it’s because things have gone very wrong. If I am mounted and go to the last resort, least effective technique first and it fails, then what? If I choose to use the most effective and efficient way out of the position, a way that utilizes physics more than pain compliance (what if the attacker is on drugs or insane? That can counter pain but not physics.), then I am less likely to escalate the violence as well as more likely to escape.

@Sentoguy

You lack the knowledge or skill in skill sets like biting to understand

I started in a traditional MA when I was in 4th grade. One instructor was a Korean War vet who was missing part of his foot thanks to a landmine. Almost every move he showed ended with biting off the ear.

@Sentoguy

where de-escalation is not an option, maximal Force is required, and/or time is of the essence, then it’s not necessarily the best option (at least, not in isolation).

The problem with biting to escape the mount is that even if it were to work you still have to deal with someone who was capable of mounting you, who may now be even angrier and who, if he mounts you again is less likely to let you bite him again. It’s not like biting is automatically going to end a fight. People will fight with broken bones, knife and gunshot wounds, etc. And the reality is, for some people, maximal force will mean zero unless they are using a gun or some other deadly weapon. They are going to have to try and hang on and survive. For those people escalating things is even more dangerous. If you are a small woman and are the victim of an attempted rape by a man who is much larger maximal force is what? Biting him will end the attempt? Trying a groin shot when it has a low chance of effectiveness will make things better? If it’s all she can do then it’s all she can do but that doesn’t mean it should be the first thing she does. If she starts with proven techniques that are based on physics she can stay in the fight longer. If she initially resorts to trying to be meaner and nastier than her attacker then she is hoping that a rapist will somehow not be mean and nasty in response. I mean, he is a rapist after all.

@Sentoguy

And again, I am not suggesting that BJJ doesn’t have very effective methods for escaping from bad positions or that there is anything “wrong” with choosing to put all of one’s efforts into mastering those options rather than learning other options (like biting or striking).

I would say that learning how to bite or strike one’s way out of bad positions rather than learning methods that come from grappling based systems is wrong. They are less effective, efficient and don’t answer the fundamental question as to why you are in that position in the first place.

@Sentoguy

you should take Rickson’s advice and treat your mind like a parachute; they work best when open.

But they don’t always work. And if you don’t have to jump out of the airplane you don’t need a parachute in the first place. Biting to escape the mount is jumping out of an airplane with an unreliable parachute.

[Fletch1986]

I think I get you Sentoguy.

When I trained Kung Fu and did point sparring, groin shots were totally legal. Opening this up is as much a game changer as allowing leg kicks in kickboxing was I believe. I became very good at both blocking/deflecting and scoring groin shots. And I regularly visited a taekwondo gym that blended in some kickboxing to cover the holes in a rough area where instructors had no issues with hitting hard during sparring.

Now that I’m practicing kickboxing in an MMA context, it’s very easy to see how the style leaves one’s groin very vulnerable and I have to fight my old instincts not to exploit this weakness in the system since it’s against the rules. I’m also struggling with dealing with leg kicks aimed at me since that was a weakness in my prior system since it wasn’t trained outside of kata.

[zecarlo]

MMA allows for a lot of bad habits. I have seen fighters in mount throwing down punches and end up missing and hitting the padded mat. In a real fight on pavement they just broke their hand.

[Sentoguy]

Yes, exactly.

What’s the best way to learn to use and deal with being punched on the feet? To train in boxing right? Boxing is basically just the art of punching and defending against punches. Yes the actual sport rules have somewhat limited the art from a Self Defense/MMA perspective compared to the art 100 years ago (at least rule set wise). But it’s pretty easy to walk a lot of those rules back and make it more “total” in it’s effectiveness.

What’s the best way to learn to kick or defend kicks? Train in an art that allows/utilizes kicks (Muay Thai, Kyokushin, Savate, Kickboxing, etc…).

What’s the best way to learn to use or defend against Takedowns? Train in a Takedown art (Judo, Wrestling, Shuai Shiao, etc…).

Ground fighting? Train in a Ground Fighting art.

Why then would someone think that a different rule applies to things like biting, eye attacks, body handles or weapons?

Again, I can understand from a philosophical or tactical standpoint choosing not to utilize certain skills, but you only really have a choice (or at least the most choice) if those are skills that you are well versed in.

Also, arranging skillsets in a hierarchal manner (I.e. Grappling is best, followed by striking, followed by nerve attacks, etc…) creates what is sometimes called “tactical tunnel vision” or “response bias” which can slow down thinking or action in attempting to use something lower on the “ladder” when in reality that could have been the most effective choice at that moment in time.

And finally, what if you run into someone who is just as skilled or better skilled than you at your specialty? Now you had better have a “backup plan” and hope that you have more skill somewhere else because the winner is usually going to be the person who has better skills in the other “Arsenals” of combat. You see this happen all the time in MMA. It’s the same in real combat, you are just less limited in the number of Arsenals available to you.

If I can hang with you in a pure BJJ context (even if you can eventually beat me), but I have developed my Striking, biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles and environmental weaponry skills to an equally high level and you have only spent time developing your BJJ, then I am going to very quickly surpass and overwhelm you in a real ground fight.

[Fletch1986]

I can’t find it through google so I’ve gotta ask, what’s a body handle?

[Sentoguy]

Making the choice not to bite from a tactical standpoint is fine (I.e. you are a bouncer restraining an unruly patron or your Uncle has a few too many at the family reunion and gets “beer balls”), but that’s going to depend heavily on situational factors. I am not suggesting, nor have not suggested, that biting should always be the best choice tactically for all situations.

That’s different than saying that it’s not an effective skill set though. And again, I am not advocating becoming a biting “specialist” (meaning that you only train biting and rely on it solely as a means of escape/attack), I’m advocating becoming a biting “synergist” (meaning learn how to use it to potentiate the effectiveness of your other Arsenals) which requires that you do learn and develop Grappling skills (both offensive and defensive), but that you also learn and develop your other Arsenals as well.

You are also approaching your conceptualization of how a real combat situation is going to go based on a very sportive based mindset. While “mutual combat” does occur in the real world, real violence can happen at any time, in any environment, and from any position. Someone does not necessarily have to be better than me to wind up mounted on me; I could wind up there due to incidental factors (maybe you were laying down to begin with when the violence began and your opponent jumped on top of you before you knew they had violent intent), or accidental factors (maybe you step back to avoid their attacks and slip on a patch of ice or step on or trip over an object on the ground and wind up falling on your back and they immediately jump on Mount and start pounding away at you). I don’t always have to get “taken down” to wind up there.

Again, not suggesting that a strictly Jiu-Jitsu/Grappling based approach can’t work from these situations, just using them to illustrate that luck and Murphy’s Law play a significant role in the situational realities of real combat much more so than in sport combat (even mutually agreed upon “challenge match” or Vale Tudo versions).

[Sentoguy]

Any part of the body that can be used as a handle. Lol.

Examples include:
-Hair
-clothing
-ears
-skin
-male genitalia

[zecarlo]

I have always respected your opinions and the knowledge you post here. So I don’t want to argue or appear like I am angry because I’m not. I understand what you are saying and I would agree that certain techniques can have a place in other arts such as bjj. The one caveat would be that there has to also be an understanding that some techniques are not always appropriate or even legal. Biting, eye gouging, are potentially crippling and can cause permanent disfigurement. They can also piss off someone who you might not want pissed off. But if properly taught as a part of a more comprehensive system it’s probably better to have them in your arsenal than not.

[zecarlo]

Royce vs kimo.

[Sentoguy]

Completely agree; understanding of the legal and moral aspects of combat is potentially as or even more important than the physical aspects. Things like biting or eye attacks should be reserved for deadly force level situations (attempted murder, rape, kidnapping, etc…).

Without that understanding one might wind up “winning the battle, but losing the war” and either behind bars or riddled with civil penalties. Or, as you say, needlessly escalating a situation which had the potential to be solved through less violent means.

Same thing could be said of weapons like firearms or edged weapons. If the situation warrants it, and you have put in the time to develop your skill with that tool to a high degree, they can save your life. But, without a proper moral compass to know when and where to use them, the person only becomes more of a threat to themselves and those around them by learning how to use them.

[Sentoguy]

Yup, classic example