Banks and Stock Market closed. Referendum on Sunday. Should be an interesting week! (Grexit from the Euro?)
ATMs are now working…
I say no bailout. There needs to be a clear lesson learned for Europe to see. If there are small international ripples in the markets, so be it. It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France.
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France. [/quote]
X2 at some point you need take your medicine.
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
ATMs are now working…
I say no bailout. There needs to be a clear lesson learned for Europe to see. If there are small international ripples in the markets, so be it. It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France. [/quote]
What’s the lesson? That, after accepting billions in aid, a country should default on those payments and leave the Euro?
If Greece leaves, then Portugal is next. And Italy. And Spain…
It’s entirely possible that the lesson to be learned is that currency unions don’t work, but if the Euro splinters it’s going to cause much more than small ripples…
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
but if the Euro splinters it’s going to cause much more than small ripples…
[/quote]
Yeah, like the possibility of WWII part II
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
ATMs are now working…
I say no bailout. There needs to be a clear lesson learned for Europe to see. If there are small international ripples in the markets, so be it. It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France. [/quote]
What’s the lesson? That, after accepting billions in aid, a country should default on those payments and leave the Euro?
If Greece leaves, then Portugal is next. And Italy. And Spain…
It’s entirely possible that the lesson to be learned is that currency unions don’t work, but if the Euro splinters it’s going to cause much more than small ripples…
[/quote]
I think this is a long term, big picture concern that could play out over the next 10 to 20 year. In the near term Greece is small potatoes. We have a bubble starting to pop right now in China and that’s going to affect the world a lot more over the next couple of years than Greece.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
ATMs are now working…
I say no bailout. There needs to be a clear lesson learned for Europe to see. If there are small international ripples in the markets, so be it. It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France. [/quote]
What’s the lesson? That, after accepting billions in aid, a country should default on those payments and leave the Euro?
If Greece leaves, then Portugal is next. And Italy. And Spain…
It’s entirely possible that the lesson to be learned is that currency unions don’t work, but if the Euro splinters it’s going to cause much more than small ripples…
[/quote]
I think this is a long term, big picture concern that could play out over the next 10 to 20 year. In the near term Greece is small potatoes. We have a bubble starting to pop right now in China and that’s going to affect the world a lot more over the next couple of years than Greece.[/quote]
Yeah, like WWII part II
Am I really the only one reading the writing on the wall here?
First of all Syriza is the Greek Trojan horse in the EU (no pun intended).
The mind-boggling Syriza coalition government between the nominally far-left Syriza and the far right anti semitic Independent Greeks has been engineered by the Russians.
Even the coalition agreement was hammered out in the Russian embassy in Athens.
A brief analysis of voting patterns of Syriza deputies in the European Parliament shows only one consistency - voting for Russian interests. The most obvious example was their attempt to block the EP resolution about the illegal annexation of Crimea.
With Syriza government in Putin’s hands, he’s got the Eurozone by the balls so to speak. Ashen faces of European bureaucrats today speak volumes. The whole point is to show that European integration is a reversible process - both economically (currency union) and militarily (NATO). And both depend on the projection and perception of power - financial, political and military.
Besides that, Greece is a thoroughly corrupt country, with abysmal levels of public services and infrastructure, and has been for the last forty years. Access to easy and cheap loans financed the unsustainable standard of living for the last thirty forty years.
The Slovenian prime minister (Slovenia’s pensions are approximately half of the Greek ones) today publicly admitted that 1,8 billion dollars or 3,9 % of yearly GDP sent to Greece will never be recovered.
So many new EU member states in central and eastern Europe are VERY angry that they have to pay billions and billions to finance the bloated salaries and pensions in Greece, which are on average two or three times higher.
As far as the Syriza government is concerned, a lot of the recent bailout funds have already been embezzled with new defense contracts and payouts to political cronies of the new government.
So Tsipras is your junkie cousin asking you for a hundred bucks every day, threatening to smear shit on your apartment walls unless you fork out the cash. Again and again. You cannot call the cops nor kick him out without losing the apartment. So it’s a lose-lose situation for you.
Honestly, I’m frightened by the reaction of the middle-class Western Europeans and their support for Syriza against the “bankers” and “Europe”. I guess they simply cannot wait to turn into a Venezuela without the oil.
Am I an asshole if I gloat when this failed socialist (but I repeat myself) State fails, yet again proving that it doesn’t work?
I mean, how many times does collectivism need to implode on itself before people listen? Or do I have to made a pod cast so the Commies in the US will watch it from strabucks wifi?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Am I an asshole if I gloat when this failed socialist (but I repeat myself) State fails, yet again proving that it doesn’t work?
I mean, how many times does collectivism need to implode on itself before people listen? Or do I have to made a pod cast so the Commies in the US will watch it from strabucks wifi?[/quote]
Those elected do not have even the most basic knowledge of business or economics, they just know how to take a bribe.
When our state brought in a couple extra billion in revenue from cap and trade, the governor wanted to put some away for a rainy day fund, but state Dems fought him tooth and nail to spend every dollar. So instead of putting some money away for bad times (common sense to you and me), we are increasing payments to the poor, giving illegal alien kids free healthcare, and more money for schools. In the meantime, the over half trillion in debt is not getting a pebble thrown at it.
How do you think this will end ?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Am I an asshole if I gloat when this failed socialist (but I repeat myself) State fails, yet again proving that it doesn’t work?
I mean, how many times does collectivism need to implode on itself before people listen? Or do I have to made a pod cast so the Commies in the US will watch it from strabucks wifi?[/quote]
Not at all. I am currently the epitome of smugness. Any one with eyes to see could see this blaze on the horizon.
The answer to your second question is people will never give it up completely. The zealots will spin this as either “not true socialism” or the the work of the capitalism boogey man and, after a while, their revisionism will take hold.
[quote]loppar wrote:
First of all Syriza is the Greek Trojan horse in the EU (no pun intended).
The mind-boggling Syriza coalition government between the nominally far-left Syriza and the far right anti semitic Independent Greeks has been engineered by the Russians.
Even the coalition agreement was hammered out in the Russian embassy in Athens.
[/quote]
Interesting, do you have any sources on that?
[quote]loppar wrote:
A brief analysis of voting patterns of Syriza deputies in the European Parliament shows only one consistency - voting for Russian interests. The most obvious example was their attempt to block the EP resolution about the illegal annexation of Crimea.
With Syriza government in Putin’s hands, he’s got the Eurozone by the balls so to speak. Ashen faces of European bureaucrats today speak volumes. The whole point is to show that European integration is a reversible process - both economically (currency union) and militarily (NATO). And both depend on the projection and perception of power - financial, political and military.
[/quote]
Well, the Russians only blew that straw house down. It was as flimsy as it has ever been, which is to say very.
[quote]loppar wrote:
Besides that, Greece is a thoroughly corrupt country, with abysmal levels of public services and infrastructure, and has been for the last forty years. Access to easy and cheap loans financed the unsustainable standard of living for the last thirty forty years.
The Slovenian prime minister (Slovenia’s pensions are approximately half of the Greek ones) today publicly admitted that 1,8 billion dollars or 3,9 % of yearly GDP sent to Greece will never be recovered.
So many new EU member states in central and eastern Europe are VERY angry that they have to pay billions and billions to finance the bloated salaries and pensions in Greece, which are on average two or three times higher.
[/quote]
I was unimpressed with having to pay more into the European project when Britain started performing well again. I can only imagine what the weaker economies think about it.
[quote]loppar wrote:
As far as the Syriza government is concerned, a lot of the recent bailout funds have already been embezzled with new defense contracts and payouts to political cronies of the new government.
So Tsipras is your junkie cousin asking you for a hundred bucks every day, threatening to smear shit on your apartment walls unless you fork out the cash. Again and again. You cannot call the cops nor kick him out without losing the apartment. So it’s a lose-lose situation for you.
Honestly, I’m frightened by the reaction of the middle-class Western Europeans and their support for Syriza against the “bankers” and “Europe”. I guess they simply cannot wait to turn into a Venezuela without the oil. [/quote]
in reality, the Greek people have no good option here. I too think the populism is worrying, but the EU technocrats have reaped this whirlwind. Their lack of democratic accountability has made it impossible for them to come out of this looking like the good guy.
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
Interesting, do you have any sources on that?
[/quote]
[quote]
in reality, the Greek people have no good option here. I too think the populism is worrying, but the EU technocrats have reaped this whirlwind. Their lack of democratic accountability has made it impossible for them to come out of this looking like the good guy. [/quote]
You are right. Absolutely no democratic accountability by the bland bureaucrats. On the other hand, the shift towards populism is worrying.
Besides far-right and far-left Kremlin allies all over Europe, you’ve got for example anti-austerity Podemos in Spain who are pretty much bankrolled by Venezuela of all countries.
It seems we in Europe are facing a choice between a faceless bureaucracy wielding a disturbing amount of political and financial power and dangerous populists with creepy hidden agendas.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Am I an asshole if I gloat when this failed socialist (but I repeat myself) State fails, yet again proving that it doesn’t work?
I mean, how many times does collectivism need to implode on itself before people listen? Or do I have to made a pod cast so the Commies in the US will watch it from strabucks wifi?[/quote]
What you’re all missing out on is that Greek debt sky-rocketed under a center-right government. They were like the second biggest defense spender as a percentage of GDP in all of NATO.
Syriza ended up coming to power as a result of the actions of the previous government.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Am I an asshole if I gloat when this failed socialist (but I repeat myself) State fails, yet again proving that it doesn’t work?
I mean, how many times does collectivism need to implode on itself before people listen? Or do I have to made a pod cast so the Commies in the US will watch it from strabucks wifi?[/quote]
Haven’t you ever talked to a college student? “Socialism is great in theory, it just has never been implemented properly.” When Socialism’s glaring failure is front and center, the only solution is more socialism. I like the way Reagan put it, “The more the plans fail, the more the planners plan.”
The Greeks probably think default is morally justified. They fault their most prominent creditor, Germany, for its “cruel past Nazi occupation of Greece, for its cold obsessions with the financial bottom line, and for its ethnocentric manipulation of the euro and the EU itself.” Lol. Seems about right.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
ATMs are now working…
I say no bailout. There needs to be a clear lesson learned for Europe to see. If there are small international ripples in the markets, so be it. It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France. [/quote]
What’s the lesson? That, after accepting billions in aid, a country should default on those payments and leave the Euro?
If Greece leaves, then Portugal is next. And Italy. And Spain…
It’s entirely possible that the lesson to be learned is that currency unions don’t work, but if the Euro splinters it’s going to cause much more than small ripples…
[/quote]
My old boss used to say, “If I owe you a $1,000, I got a problem. If I owe you $100,000,000, you got a problem.”
What if Greece just says, “fuck off, we’re done paying”? Who is more fucked, Greece, or their creditors? I’m not convinced its Greece and I think Greece holds way more leverage than most people want to acknowledge.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Those elected do not have even the most basic knowledge of business or economics, they just know how to take a bribe.
When our state brought in a couple extra billion in revenue from cap and trade, the governor wanted to put some away for a rainy day fund, but state Dems fought him tooth and nail to spend every dollar. So instead of putting some money away for bad times (common sense to you and me), we are increasing payments to the poor, giving illegal alien kids free healthcare, and more money for schools. In the meantime, the over half trillion in debt is not getting a pebble thrown at it.
How do you think this will end ?[/quote]
Gov. Brown becomes angry and kicks all their asses!
(I wish)
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Those elected do not have even the most basic knowledge of business or economics, they just know how to take a bribe.[/quote]
This right here, and the fact that a politicians job is to win elections (experience managing/governing and responsible legislation is not a necessary condition to hold hold office, as evidenced ad nauseam) is why I do not trust politicians nor think most are fit for office.
They could give a shit about any long term consequences of upholding any sacred vow as long as they win the next election. They’re, by and large, constantly campaigning even when voting on legislation or diverting funds.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
ATMs are now working…
I say no bailout. There needs to be a clear lesson learned for Europe to see. If there are small international ripples in the markets, so be it. It’s better to learn our lesson with an economy like Greece as opposed to France. [/quote]
What’s the lesson? That, after accepting billions in aid, a country should default on those payments and leave the Euro?
If Greece leaves, then Portugal is next. And Italy. And Spain…
It’s entirely possible that the lesson to be learned is that currency unions don’t work, but if the Euro splinters it’s going to cause much more than small ripples…
[/quote]
My old boss used to say, “If I owe you a $1,000, I got a problem. If I owe you $100,000,000, you got a problem.”
What if Greece just says, “fuck off, we’re done paying”? Who is more fucked, Greece, or their creditors? I’m not convinced its Greece and I think Greece holds way more leverage than most people want to acknowledge.
[/quote]
This is the mantra of Liberal/ Socialist economics… Just pass laws and build shit and figure out how to pay for it in the future. Kick the can down the road so some other asshole or group of assholes has to deal with it. Then claim tax increases are needed or the sky will fall, children will not get their education, and the place will burn down in flames (Arnold actually said this when trying to pass tax hikes when we had one of the mildest fire seasons in decades).
Attach a tax increase to some moral high ground, make your opponent look like a heartless bastard.