T Nation

Greece


#1

Socialism works?

The dire effects of wanton spending.


#2

I liked it better before the Macedonian Wars.


#3

Maybe they will just print more money?


#4

The only concerning part is that yet again some self-avowed communists were able to sway the populace. At least they only got 36% of the vote and Syriza likely won’t hold a majority in the parliament.

In the end, I don’t expect much to change. The EU has them by the balls right now. They will likely renegotiate (again) the terms on their debt, get longer maturities and maybe a 25 point decrease in rates or so. Syriza will claim this as a win, have a few more dollars to spend for some of their policy promises, and Greece will continue to tread water as the best and brightest leave the socialist state.

The facts are that Greece has now shown some turnaround and while the debt to GDP ratios look astronomical, the deficit has closed and the debt service is manageable. They will get a deal just to shut them up and prevent them from doing anything stupid. There are too many German banks dependent on them repaying, and it appears that at this point even Syriza isn’t crazy enough to leave the EU. Nobody is willing to take the short term pain that would be necessary for a true Greek turn around.


#5

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I liked it better before the Macedonian Wars.[/quote]

I blame Epaminondas.


#6

I just hope when their country becomes a giant ball of shit, the citizens realize that they have no one to blame but themselves. Its coming to the U.S.


#7

This is the new Greek finance minister’s blog: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/

He taught economics last year at UT Austin. He plans to continue blogging.


#8

[quote]theuofh wrote:
This is the new Greek finance minister’s blog: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/

He taught economics last year at UT Austin. He plans to continue blogging. [/quote]

From your article:

“…the SYRIZA government’s first foreign policy ‘move’ was to veto fresh sanctions on Russia.”

This is what I’ve been trying to explain to you and others about IR. Cuba has been voting against everything the US tries to do for 60 odd years. We don’t need a “quieter” foreign policy whatever that means(you didn’t elaborate).


#9

The funny thing is Europe is treating Greece’s economic demise as an outlier.


#10

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

We don’t need a “quieter” foreign policy whatever that means(you didn’t elaborate).

[/quote]

So we need to invade and occupy every country that has conflicting interests?


#11

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

We don’t need a “quieter” foreign policy whatever that means(you didn’t elaborate).

[/quote]

So we need to invade and occupy every country that has conflicting interests?
[/quote]

Er…yes, all of them. That’s exactly what I wrote in invisible ink there. Well done on spotting it. /sarcasm at your strawman.


#12

Besides, we were talking about sanctioning Cuba and how our enemies vote against us at the UN. Nothing to do with “invading everyone” - a total strawman.


#13

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, we were talking about sanctioning Cuba and how our enemies vote against us at the UN. Nothing to do with “invading everyone” - a total strawman.[/quote]

I’m not arguing a strawman, I’m trying to illustrate my point about a “quieter” foreign policy. On the knob of intensity, invasion and occupations is about as high as you can go, and sanctions are about the lowest. That leaves a whole lot of middle ground, some of which IMO has been historically the most effective means to achieve our foreign policy objectives. Every invasion and occupation has actually hurt American foreign policy objectives since WWII.

I’m very curious what is going to happen to Greece, and if they will given free reign to act in their own interests, or coerced back into towing the “West”'s party line.


#14

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

We don’t need a “quieter” foreign policy whatever that means(you didn’t elaborate).

[/quote]

So we need to invade and occupy every country that has conflicting interests?
[/quote]

Don’t know about occupation, but we should definitely kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.


#15

[quote]theuofh wrote:

I’m not arguing a strawman, I’m trying to illustrate my point about a “quieter” foreign policy. On the knob of intensity, invasion and occupations is about as high as you can go, and sanctions are about the lowest. That leaves a whole lot of middle ground, some of which IMO has been historically the most effective means to achieve our foreign policy objectives. Every invasion and occupation has actually hurt American foreign policy objectives since WWII.

[/quote]

Only because the left undermined us on the homefront. Vietnam was virtually won by the utter (Vietcong/NA) failure. It was a desperate last ditch that failed yet the media and the left portrayed it as an American defeat. Besides, it was too late in 2009 to act “quietly” because we’d already stirred up the hornets’ nest. You can’t just “end the wars” by unilaterally disengaging while the enemy is still attacking you.

[quote]

I’m very curious what is going to happen to Greece, and if they will given free reign to act in their own interests, or coerced back into towing the “West”'s party line. [/quote]

Well, they won’t let them leave the EU that’s for sure. And their problems are largely self inflicted, albeit with a little help from Goldman Sachs to hide how much debt they’d dug for themselves.


#16

#17

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, we were talking about sanctioning Cuba and how our enemies vote against us at the UN. Nothing to do with “invading everyone” - a total strawman.[/quote]

I’m not arguing a strawman, I’m trying to illustrate my point about a “quieter” foreign policy. On the knob of intensity, invasion and occupations is about as high as you can go, and sanctions are about the lowest. That leaves a whole lot of middle ground, some of which IMO has been historically the most effective means to achieve our foreign policy objectives. Every invasion and occupation has actually hurt American foreign policy objectives since WWII.

I’m very curious what is going to happen to Greece, and if they will given free reign to act in their own interests, or coerced back into towing the “West”'s party line. [/quote]

If they want to remain in the single currency, they will balk. I think the single currency is fucked in any event.

Also, not every invasion since WW2 has harmed american interests. Korea improved the situation in the region.
Also, SM’s assessment is correct. Every action against Soviet and psuedo-soviets was undermined at home. Often by people being influenced by card-carrying members of Comintern. Not quite an actual 5th column, but it was damn close.

These are the same people who argued that Trotsky/ Stalin were right wing when the argument needed it. They weren’t exactly wedded to the truth.


#18

[quote]Legalsteel wrote:

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, we were talking about sanctioning Cuba and how our enemies vote against us at the UN. Nothing to do with “invading everyone” - a total strawman.[/quote]

I’m not arguing a strawman, I’m trying to illustrate my point about a “quieter” foreign policy. On the knob of intensity, invasion and occupations is about as high as you can go, and sanctions are about the lowest. That leaves a whole lot of middle ground, some of which IMO has been historically the most effective means to achieve our foreign policy objectives. Every invasion and occupation has actually hurt American foreign policy objectives since WWII.

I’m very curious what is going to happen to Greece, and if they will given free reign to act in their own interests, or coerced back into towing the “West”'s party line. [/quote]

If they want to remain in the single currency, they will balk. I think the single currency is fucked in any event.

Also, not every invasion since WW2 has harmed american interests. Korea improved the situation in the region.
Also, SM’s assessment is correct. Every action against Soviet and psuedo-soviets was undermined at home. Often by people being influenced by card-carrying members of Comintern. Not quite an actual 5th column, but it was damn close.

These are the same people who argued that Trotsky/ Stalin were right wing when the argument needed it. They weren’t exactly wedded to the truth. [/quote]

I’m not going to argue domestic subversion of the war effort. It definitely happened a couple times related to actions in our southern hemisphere, where congress actually cut funding, but Korea and Vietnam, I don’t know.

Returning to scheduled programming, the moment of truth has arrived for Greece:


#19

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]Legalsteel wrote:

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, we were talking about sanctioning Cuba and how our enemies vote against us at the UN. Nothing to do with “invading everyone” - a total strawman.[/quote]

I’m not arguing a strawman, I’m trying to illustrate my point about a “quieter” foreign policy. On the knob of intensity, invasion and occupations is about as high as you can go, and sanctions are about the lowest. That leaves a whole lot of middle ground, some of which IMO has been historically the most effective means to achieve our foreign policy objectives. Every invasion and occupation has actually hurt American foreign policy objectives since WWII.

I’m very curious what is going to happen to Greece, and if they will given free reign to act in their own interests, or coerced back into towing the “West”'s party line. [/quote]

If they want to remain in the single currency, they will balk. I think the single currency is fucked in any event.

Also, not every invasion since WW2 has harmed american interests. Korea improved the situation in the region.
Also, SM’s assessment is correct. Every action against Soviet and psuedo-soviets was undermined at home. Often by people being influenced by card-carrying members of Comintern. Not quite an actual 5th column, but it was damn close.

These are the same people who argued that Trotsky/ Stalin were right wing when the argument needed it. They weren’t exactly wedded to the truth. [/quote]

I’m not going to argue domestic subversion of the war effort. It definitely happened a couple times related to actions in our southern hemisphere, where congress actually cut funding, but Korea and Vietnam, I don’t know.

Returning to scheduled programming, the moment of truth has arrived for Greece:


[/quote]

This could get very interesting. The deadline is what, Feb. 28?


#20

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]Legalsteel wrote:

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, we were talking about sanctioning Cuba and how our enemies vote against us at the UN. Nothing to do with “invading everyone” - a total strawman.[/quote]

I’m not arguing a strawman, I’m trying to illustrate my point about a “quieter” foreign policy. On the knob of intensity, invasion and occupations is about as high as you can go, and sanctions are about the lowest. That leaves a whole lot of middle ground, some of which IMO has been historically the most effective means to achieve our foreign policy objectives. Every invasion and occupation has actually hurt American foreign policy objectives since WWII.

I’m very curious what is going to happen to Greece, and if they will given free reign to act in their own interests, or coerced back into towing the “West”'s party line. [/quote]

If they want to remain in the single currency, they will balk. I think the single currency is fucked in any event.

Also, not every invasion since WW2 has harmed american interests. Korea improved the situation in the region.
Also, SM’s assessment is correct. Every action against Soviet and psuedo-soviets was undermined at home. Often by people being influenced by card-carrying members of Comintern. Not quite an actual 5th column, but it was damn close.

These are the same people who argued that Trotsky/ Stalin were right wing when the argument needed it. They weren’t exactly wedded to the truth. [/quote]

I’m not going to argue domestic subversion of the war effort. It definitely happened a couple times related to actions in our southern hemisphere, where congress actually cut funding, but Korea and Vietnam, I don’t know.

Returning to scheduled programming, the moment of truth has arrived for Greece:


[/quote]

Fair enough. It is off topic.

I cannot believe they are playing this game, given German exposure to Greek debt. An international Morton’s fork…