just finished reading it, and i feel ashamed for asking a tl;dr
Really valuable information. Where do you get hese kind of information from? really good insight!
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
just finished reading it, and i feel ashamed for asking a tl;dr
Really valuable information. Where do you get hese kind of information from? really good insight![/quote]
What is a tl;dr? I am not ashamed to ask. I think it is because I lack self respect.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
just finished reading it, and i feel ashamed for asking a tl;dr
Really valuable information. Where do you get hese kind of information from? really good insight![/quote]
What is a tl;dr? I am not ashamed to ask. I think it is because I lack self respect.[/quote]
Don’t feel ashamed, I have no idea what it means either. 
tl;dr = too long; didn’t read
[quote]batman730 wrote:
tl;dr = too long; didn’t read[/quote]
Thanks.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
tl;dr = too long; didn’t read[/quote]
Thanks. :)[/quote]
Thank you from me as well.
Ryron Gracie once told me that to be a hard grappler first you must develop your defense, it means getting submit and putting yourself in bad positions constantly and learning what to do from there, when you turn into a difficult guy to sub, it will be a hard spar, then you can show some danger from attacking.
Everyone’s opinion on self defense is self serving…
You can shoot a guy for slapping you and everyone is in danger of being in a bar fight agaisnt multiple opponents regardless of whether you ever even go into bars. The thought that someone standing isn’t incredibly vulnerable to multiple attackers and that an untrained person can apply “dirty” tactics more effectively than a trained grappler.
[quote]JRT6 wrote:
Everyone’s opinion on self defense is self serving…
You can shoot a guy for slapping you and everyone is in danger of being in a bar fight agaisnt multiple opponents regardless of whether you ever even go into bars. The thought that someone standing isn’t incredibly vulnerable to multiple attackers and that an untrained person can apply “dirty” tactics more effectively than a trained grappler.[/quote]
???
Friends don’t let friends drink and post.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Friends don’t let friends drink and post.[/quote]
NOW you tell me. Where were you when I was giving away the secrets of Rape Banana Fighting Systems in the other thread?
Good looking out Big Guy.
Robert A
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]JRT6 wrote:
Everyone’s opinion on self defense is self serving…
You can shoot a guy for slapping you and everyone is in danger of being in a bar fight agaisnt multiple opponents regardless of whether you ever even go into bars. The thought that someone standing isn’t incredibly vulnerable to multiple attackers and that an untrained person can apply “dirty” tactics more effectively than a trained grappler.[/quote]
???
Friends don’t let friends drink and post.[/quote]
Nah brah my post reflected the lucidity of some of the arguments made here.
[quote]JRT6 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]JRT6 wrote:
Everyone’s opinion on self defense is self serving…
You can shoot a guy for slapping you and everyone is in danger of being in a bar fight agaisnt multiple opponents regardless of whether you ever even go into bars. The thought that someone standing isn’t incredibly vulnerable to multiple attackers and that an untrained person can apply “dirty” tactics more effectively than a trained grappler.[/quote]
???
Friends don’t let friends drink and post.[/quote]
Nah brah my post reflected the lucidity of some of the arguments made here.[/quote]
Most of the regular posters on this subforum agree on most of the same principles.
Sure, we differ due to the fact that we practice different styles and all, but for the most part there’s little bullshitting here unless some jerkoffs come in trying to sell one thing as the be all end all.
Maybe I’m just not seeing your point.
My point is that it seems that everyone who disses traditional grappling for self defense always frame their arguments in the context of a bar fight or claim that they’ll just shoot anyone for the slightest transgression. Most people who have to defend themselves are not picking fights in bars. Choking out a drunk uncle Bob at the family reunion is more humane than busting a cap in his ass or gouging his eye out with “anti-grappling”.
[quote]JRT6 wrote:
My point is that it seems that everyone who disses traditional grappling for self defense always frame their arguments in the context of a bar fight or claim that they’ll just shoot anyone for the slightest transgression.
[/quote]
Nobody here claims that they’ll shoot at the slightest transgression, especially not the regular posters on this forum.
And if self-defense is often framed that way, it’s because bars are one of the places that violence occurs much more frequently than it will otherwise. Alcohol does that.
I don’t think you have any idea where they are one way or another. And I don’t think you’ve got any statistics to back this statement u.
Over the course of my life, I’ve seen probably four times as much violence at bars than anywhere else. Maybe more.
[quote]
Choking out a drunk uncle Bob at the family reunion is more humane than busting a cap in his ass or gouging his eye out with “anti-grappling”. [/quote]
Yea it’s more humane, and it’s one of the times that grappling shines as an art. If you get into a confrontation at a bar and decide you want to fight it out, it doesn’t shine. If you’re getting mugged or about to, it’ doesn’t shine. If there’s more than one person or any kind of weapon involved - and there normally is ALWAYS one of these involved - grappling doesn’t shine. It’s dangerous.
That’s the point of all this.
Just because you have a hammer doesn’t mean everything is a nail.
And believe me, there are limits to everything. I ran into this a couple weeks ago when a friend of a girl I am seeing got tremendously drunk at a bar, and she was trying to convince him to give up his keys.
The guy was so plowed that it was just stubborn refusal after stubborn refusal, but he was in such bad shape that he would have easily killed someone or himself if he got behind the wheel.
I’d only met the guy once, and although he’s far from the fighting type, he’s a very large, very belligerent drunk.
In my head I knew I could get the keys, but I also knew that I was going to have to hit him to do it. This could lead to a lot of complicating factors for me, especially when the bar, which is on a main road, had already closed - if i hit him and he doesn’t go down but starts to fight back, now I’m really into it with him and the situation has been escalated to the point where serious injury could occur.
If he does go down, he’s probably going to hold a grudge for a long time against me because I slugged him and stole his keys after meeting him the second time, even if it was at the behest of the girl, who’s his best friend.
And there’s always the chance that the cops come, misinterpret the situation, and I just got arrested for simple assault.
In that spot, grappling is a great, great tool, and one that I didn’t have.
All you have to do is look up the Dept. of Justice stats on assaults and robberies. Around 20% of aggravated assaults involved a weapon and 5% of the time it was a firearm. The location was either close to, or at, home or on the street. Over half the time the victim knew his attacker. So you are safer in a bar than in your home when it comes to assault.
Irish there is half a page replying to this quote on page one of this thread, you can do better when trying to disagree with me out of hand:
"But for self defence?
CCW then…find a range that allows and hopefully teaches point shooting. Twice a week like f’n clockwork for an hour or 3 go point-shot."
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
All you have to do is look up the Dept. of Justice stats on assaults and robberies. Around 20% of aggravated assaults involved a weapon and 5% of the time it was a firearm. The location was either close to, or at, home or on the street. Over half the time the victim knew his attacker. So you are safer in a bar than in your home when it comes to assault. [/quote]
You have a point, but those stats are a little misleading the way you are presenting them. Very few “bar fights” result in assault charges unless there are serious injuries or other extenuating circumstances. Conversely, almost all cases of domestic violence do result in charges(if police are called). This causes the home to appear much more dangerous as a result of how incidents are reported/recorded.
As far as location “on the street” can and often does mean on the street outside of or near a bar(often around just after closing), as opposed to actually inside the establishment. If you legitimately don’t believe that large quantities of alcohol being consumed by large numbers of young males contributes to violence, then I really don’t know what to tell you. It just does.
Regarding whether the assailant is known to the victim: “Known to each other” does not necessarily mean any intimate acquaintance, just that the 2 individuals were not strangers prior to the incident. 2 guys with an ongoing beef are “known to each other”. So are a woman and her ex-boyfriend. The story really changes when you factor in gender. WELL over half of female victims of assault know their attackers, often in a romantic context. As important as this problem is, it simply does not mean that the average person, especially the average 20-something male who is likely reading this thread, is safer in the bar than at home.
[quote]JRT6 wrote:
Irish there is half a page replying to this quote on page one of this thread, you can do better when trying to disagree with me out of hand:
"But for self defence?
CCW then…find a range that allows and hopefully teaches point shooting. Twice a week like f’n clockwork for an hour or 3 go point-shot."[/quote]
Well yea, but that guy’s an asshole.
I think there were some pretty long, reasonable replies from Robert, Sento, and others that addressed it better than the standard dipshit reply of “Just carry a gun.”
I would just like to throw a caution out there to anyone advocating using carotid chokes as a means of being “less violent”.
They absolutely work. But if they fail expect the situation to be ramped up to “lets try to kill each other.”
No one should have any expectation that if they get choked unconscious in a situation without a ref or outside of a training hall that they will be allowed to wake up. Plan accordingly.
There are many pins, holds, and locks that can be used to get compliance on someone. I would only recommend choking someone out in a situation where putting them down and out fast is the only way to prevent real ugliness, and choking is your best tool.
Ask yourself, “What would I do if I was upset or combative(assume you have a right to be or at least think you do) and someone wrapped their arm around my neck and squeezed?” Ask it again with the addendum that you feel yourself weakening.
I think grappling, even in a sport/competition style Judo, Shootwrestling, or a sport focused BJJ school has great utility in many “real fights”/“self defense” situations. I am not saying this to deride “grappling” in general.
Regards,
Robert A