Grandmother was Right!

43 years old. From my childhood to her death in 2018, I considered my grandmother a bit wackadoodle on nutrition. Never ate fast food, infrequently patronized restaurants. Mostly cooked at home, and healthy versions of typical “Southern USA” dishes. Always drinking rose hip tea, buying ezekiel bread, not keeping sweets around on a regular basis, frequenting the only health food/nutritional store in town, that sort of thing.

Now…having witnessed Western medicine’s descent into madness (pseudointellectualism, undeserved arrogance, tossing meds at folks like leftover halloween candy) since the 90’s…I wish i could tell her she was right all along! Natural foods and clean living are the preferred way to go…medical imtervention is a tool, not necessarily the knee jerk answer to everything.

The very young do not always do as they are told.

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While this may be true under certain circumstances, spreading this ideology is potentially treacherous

There are people who genuinely require medication. I have a feeling the people who ascribe to this belief “its the meds that are tossed around like nothing” have never had to deal with true pain, long term and debilitating mental illness, autonomic or cardiac disorders etc.

This body of thought can reign true depending on the circumstance. But systematically applying it via painting medicine with a broad brush, and accusing medical professionals of pseudointellectualism (because the average joe knows more than a doctor… right? I reckon the average person wouldn’t survive a single month of med school…) Has led to many “self educated” individuals forming bogus conclusions based on pseudoscience while they themselves accuse medical professionals who have studied for decades of promoting pseudoscience. These people typically wind up spreading around misinformation, and the cycle continues. I am not stating YOU have done this as you haven’t outlined specific gripes, but of the particular philosophies I disagree with when it comes to pushing back against modern medicine it typically starts with an individual lamenting doctors, modernism and advocating for a scenario that the individual is certain will eventuate a superior outcome despire not being qualified in the relevant fields of medicine, chemistry, psychology, pharmacy or epidemiology.

The meds that actually are dispensed like candy (i.e statins, BP meds and cardiac meds, metformin etc) reflect a greater underlying problem. That is that the average individual has gotten fatter, and is of far poorer cardiometabolic health relative to 20-40 years ago.

Ditto with antidepressants, young people in particular can’t cope with skyrocketing costs of living, perpetual financial instability and crippling debt, lack of community/large scale events that facilitate peer to peer bonding experiences with either friends, family or the greater community around.

You can’t blame doctors for that… blame corporate greed and the decline of (SOME) social institutions. Even the opiate epidemic… Let’s say one blames doctors for that, as many seemingly do. Aside from the fact the majority of addicts eventually became full blown addicts through buying pills on the street or stealing from relatives, doctors actually were duped. Purdue pharmaceuticals managed to manipulate study designs and falsify results. Doctors were taught to believe “even in the presence of escalating doses, oxycontin is different, non-addictive and isn’t prone to abuse”. Doctors actually were duped there… So blame ONE specific corporation for shady practices that IMO could have ONLY gone down in America. There’s not a chance in hell a company like that could operate absent of scrutiny in just about any other first world, secular country.

This reminds me of the “adhd doesn’t exist”, the “major depressive disorders have nothing to do with chemical imbalances” or the “antidepressants don’t work/psychiatrists are quacks” arguement… typically made by people who have never taken antidepressants or seen psychiatrists. I vehemontly disagree with it, rather I believe those who go by this motto “clean living and you’re good” actually have the priviledge to be happy, healthy, uncrippled and relatively unburdened.

Fix the glaring issues leading to people relying on meds (obesity, financial instability, isolation, sedentary lifestyles being encouraged, lack of effective pain management as a lot of adults suffer with chronic pain and loneliness) and perhaps people won’t be gobbling up meds in the manner they do.

Regardless of the above… plenty of people have disorders that simply can’t be fixed without meds (not a small portion of the population. You are probably looking at around at least 20% of todays population or so that could significantly benefit from the intake of one or more meds)

My preference is that people actually talk to doctors or pharmacists, and look into the pharmacodynamics, pharmacokinetics, potential upsides and potential downsides of any medicine or medical practice/procedure they wish to bash.

The reason as to why medical interventions are used as “kneejerk” reactions to obesity, cardiometabolic abnormalities or mental illness is because it exerts a positive effect on an epidemiological scale.

You aren’t going to convince a society that subsists on sedentary lifestyles and fast foot to put down the fork and start exercising. Making a change en masse takes a long time. One can look to the Netherlands for successful implementation of a scheme that led to a more active, healthy population. Until a similar scheme can be implemented in the USA/other first world countries, throwing meds at people who are unwilling to change their lifestyles leads to a reduction in overall morbidity, and less burden on hospitals. I do take a bit of an issue with this as it appears modern medicine has made great strides to extend quantity of life, yet quality of life is frequently overlooked.

Although it sounds good in practice for everyone to just be healthier… it takes a LONG time to fundamentally alter behavioural patterns on a systematic scale.

One also needs to note… America is one of the only countries that can actually advertise medications on TV. Once again, corporate greed… not the doctors.

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Not that I disagree with any of what you said, but

things like that are directly correlated with people eating fewer whole foods. Grandmother was right but that does not mean medications don’t have a very important place.

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Good luck trying to get people to change their dietary habits.

Countries like the UK and Israel have imposed ‘sin taxes’ on unhealthy foods… it hasn’t worked…

As is, advertising for fast food chains, liquor stores and breweries is absolutely everywhere. Like big tobacco, fast food and the various industries involved in marketing alcoholic beverages will go down kicking and screaming… if they ever go down… there’s too much money in it and no disparagement, public education campaigns warning of the dangers entailed by consuming those FANTASTIC, scrumptious, AMAZING, unfathomably great KFC wicked wings…

Many parents are worn out after work (cost of living isn’t sustainable with only one working parent in many regions now), they could spend more on whole foods, and subsequently prepare a nutritious meal for their kids… or they could take them to in n out burgers for like 10 bucks and be done with it

It’s going to be very difficult, if not impossible to wean people off fast food in countries like America, Australia and the UK. The next best option is to throw meds at people who are burdened by too much KFC as it reduces overall burden on hospitals and decreases all cause mortality rates.

Doctors are also way quicker to pull the trigger on dispensing BP meds, cardiac meds etc for smokers because smokers are invariably at a way higher risk of developing consequences from uncontrolled hypertension (even pre-hypertension) and their risk for ischemic heart disease is also way higher.

But it makes you look cool so it’s an even trade off :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Eating healthier might eventuate an identical outcome, but we must ask outselves “how realistic is that proposal for a society virtually hooked on fast food?”

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It’s not realistic at all right now. And then you have to factor in things like body positivity messages, “health at any bodyweight”. Obesity is an actual epidemic but the more it becomes the majority, the more a societal shift happens to accept it.

We know that unhealthy foods cause inflammation, and we know that inflammation causes a desire for more hyper-palatable foods. It’s extremely difficult to conquer but it’s ultimately up to the discipline of the individual. I avoid sugary snacks like the plague, a carrot actually tastes like a sweet to me now. Like you say though, we’re hooked. And getting more hooked. Less acceptance, more education is needed. I know many people who have turned their lives around aged 40+ after major health scares due to their diet. Too many people just accept the meds, don’t become advocates for their own health and then die sooner than they could have regardless.

Post gym KFC sesh… if you watch TV here (Aus) chances are every second ad is either marketing fast food, or marketing alcohol.

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Yeah but on the wider scale in the younger generation; fewer people are indulging in risky behavior, fewer people are drinking alcohol, and fewer people are smoking. The enemies now are screens and poor diet choices. In the age of tech and mass industry, it’s a different battle but there’s always gonna be something. Maybe 200 years from now we’ll have the obesity problem sorted but the only social interaction we’ll have is with robots.

There has been a particular response here to my original post that reminds me why I typically mimimize my internet use and interactions with other people this past decade.

I will express my opinion. This is followed by a person/persons getting their feelings hurt. They then emotionally lash out, attacking the man rather than the argument…generally start throwing mud and interjecting their own context into my statement.

Intelligence, common sense, good judgement, critical thinking…these attributes do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Having a professional designation/license (in any particular field of endeavor) doesnt mean youre good at it…it just means you were a good student. Unless youre a minority or a woman, in which I could make the case (in America, the past several decades) you were given priority entry into college due to those qualities rather than academic merit. Followed by academic coddling while in college. There is also the matter of degrading academic and professional standards over the past 30 years (America), whuch impacts everyone to varying degrees.

My statement “ Natural foods and clean living are the preferred way to go…medical imtervention is a tool, not necessarily the knee jerk answer to everything.” surmised the simple point I was making. Inferences should not be drawn past that.

Pleasantness and politeness are in rare supply these days among the masses. Calm, intellectual conversation between men has largely given way to emotion.

No one is attacking you.

No one is emotionally lashing out at you

You made the decision to come out and make the claim medical professionals peddle pseudoscience, and are arrogant. I provided an explanation as to why meds are tossed out… and while some doctors are arrogant (shouldn’t be towards patients but some are) its because they know 10000x more about the human body relaitve to what you or I could ever hope to comprehend.

Lets say doctors decide to clamp down on prescribing the most commonly prescribed meds in America. Do you think Americans would suddenly start living healthier lifestyles? Or would life exoectancy drop, burden on hospitals increase etc?

You are right… people should eat more whole foods, it’d cut down on overall burden of disease. But what looks good on paper won’t practically pan out

Look at European countries like France, NL and/or Japan for a model re how to largely keep people active (public transport largley built around cycling infrastructure, many affordable food options beyond fast food, incentives to stay active, public calisthenics equipment etc).

Except it is incredibly difficult to be accepted into medical school. If you got in, you were a straight A student. The standards to which doctors are held to when studying are also far higher than that of the vast majority of professions.

There’s a reason why med school has such a high drop out rate. Even if you get in, many can’t handle the long days of studying, long working hours on res, many don’t have the capacity to retain the amount of knowledge one is required to memorise.

Provide proof to back up this claim. In Australia you aren’t granted entry into college for being black. Rather you are given slight leeway (maybe you need to be an A student instead of an A+ student to get into medicine) if you come from a poor or underresourced neighbourhood. In Australia poor neighbourhoods tend to house all sorts… you have dirt poor all white rural villages, dirt poor aboriginal reserves, dirt poor immigrant communities etc. All of the above are generally plagued by identical issues.

Wheres the policy of letting black kids or women with normal grades into med school…

People with neurodevelopmental disorders… like autism… now colleges REALLY help those people out… I know because I am autistic and have ADHD (diagnosed in childhood and re assessed numerous times to ensure validity of DX). I was able to get into biomedicine being a B average student with an awful attendance record.

Agreed. I apologise if you percieved my tone to be insulting. I tend to be rather brash about the way I talk about things. It is not intended to be an attack directed towards you… or any one individual for that matter

Unreal25278:

I was not insulted by your words. Please re-read my prior post, as it does not state or imply such a reaction on my part. There is no desire for debate on your part, only a desire for argument. Arguments have no value to me…they are a form of emotional diarrhea whose sole purpose is to make the person feel better/vindicated. I am not interested in arguing. This post completes my participation on this thread.

He did sound a bit ranty and emotional but why let that bother you? He never “attacked the man”, just went on a bit of a wild tangent. Produce some points/counterpoints to add to the debate/argument or don’t, that’s all gravy.

If you feel too superior to converse with internet folk, then that’s your folly.

Have fun.

This was my favorite part. These types of people make my blood boil

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Are you really arrogant to the point of accusing me of picking fights when I’ve made a few queries to try better understand where you are coming from?

The kinds of people who state doctors are pseudoscientific, arrogant pencil pushers are (usually) ironically the individuals spouting pseudoscientific nonsense. Your claim people should adhere to healthier dietary protocols is 100% valid… You claim that medical professionals are parroting pseudoscience is disingenuous… For one to seriously believe they know better when it comes to medicine relative to doctors themselves, it infers one lacks insight, that they are extremely opinionated or arrogant. It is disingenuous to frame a conversation around a narrative wherein any critique or qualm is written off as some guy looking for a fight, get out of here with that emotional manipulation.

Intellectual discussion infers that you can intelligently respond to my queries. You noble squire you…

Once again… provide proof, medical school has become considerably more complex as time has gone by. Especially considering the manner by which doctors have to specialise here.

You didn’t like what I had to say, therefore you specify I’m looking for a fight… No… I had qualms with some of the statements you made and thus specified what didn’t think was correct. You were welcome to disagree, or tell me why I’m wrong.

I say “provide proof” with regards to certain statements you’ve made because I’m sceptical. Instead of actually trying to back up your claims you’ve reverted to an ad hominem attack on my character while postulating as if you are “above” my emotional diarrhoea.

Prove that black students are getting into med school, or any prestigious course with subpar grades because they are black. Prove women are being admitted to colleges with worse grades than guys because they’re women… Or is this one of those hunches people have i.e “PC culture looks for diversity quotas. Therefore even though I can’t find concrete evidence it’s true”.

From a legal standpoint. Numerous colleges that have been accused of gender bias have been successfully sued for doing so. For the most part, applicants are approved due to their academic performance. SEAS (special assistance) may be granted to boost ones marks on the basis of economic hardship, intellectual or neurodevelopmental disabilities, physical disabilities etc. You aren’t given free points for being black or a woman… As a matter of fact, it is illegal for colleges to do this, hence if found out they wind up getting sued… successfully.

You have not provided counter rebuttals, or any information that invalidates my statements or supports your narrative.

Get off your high horse with

Vindicated? What are you on about?

  • show me how a normal C student gets into and passes med school. Provide examples, the stats on the grades med school students have to get, the hours they put in and the absurd amount of detail (past curriculums up for public view) that needs to be memorised coupled with the high dropout rates doesn’t back up your narrative that one doesn’t have to be a good student to get in

Out of curiosity. How many doctors or med students do you personally know? Now I am actually being argumentative. Accuse me of looking for a fight while showcasing a holier than thou demeanour and that rubs people the wrong way.

People who self-educate themselves over complex subject matter that generally takes decades to become educated on and eventuate misinformed conclusions based on pseudoscience really tend to get on my nerves. Particularly if they adopt a holier than thou sentiment. Forming conclusions absent of pressure testing and framing conversations or quasi debates around narratives where you can’t be wrong because you won’t actually accept the answers various academics have to provide is akin to saying you know how to roll (BJJ), but you only drill techniques and never actually spar against a resisting opponent. It’s disingenuous and emanates arrogance.

That is what I believe OP has done. Self-education, absent of pressure testing coupled with what I can only infer is arrogance and a holier than thou attitude and he just knows better… Doctors? Pseudoscientific quacks… a college education? Degrading standards, it doesn’t mean anything… Because getting into med school, lots of average students do that…

What? Bro your post is weird and reads more like a diary insert. Don’t put your personal thoughts on an internet forum, inviting dialogue, and then act like a bitch when you get it. Jesus… the snowflakes of the world.

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I think Bill Burr said it best…

I don’t have a problem with any doctors. They are just being taught the best science.
I have a problem with the best science.
If you were as old as me you would have seen science contradict themselves as they better understood the human body.

Do you remember when Crisco was healthier than butter, because butter had saturated fat?
Do you remember when eggs caused heart disease?

This one I was personally attacked by doctors at the (teaching) hospital where my wife (at that time) was a respiratory therapist for killing myself by eating 7 eggs every morning. They insisted to her repeatedly that my blood cholesterol was way over 200. Eventually, I got my cholesterol tested. It was less than 150.

I had a PDR where included in the text of the description of anabolic steroids was the comment that “anabolic steroids do not enhance athletic ability.” My 1979 edition did not yet include the comment. I kept that one.

I don’t blame the doctors for believing that they have the final truth. I just don’t credit them understanding the scientific method.

My default position on scientific dietary truth. The more natural, the better the choice.

The only issue that i have with doctors…they need to study nutrition for longer than two weeks

I really don’t care if my doctor has nutritional knowledge. I can take care of that myself.

Thats the issue, not everyone will take the time to learn as you did, so they ask their doctors for nutritional advice

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Just to be a little argumentative, would you ask your doctor for nutritional advice?

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