T Nation

Gordon Brown Gets His

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
OneMoreRep wrote:

Actually the Cockney accent is old and is not an issue. The problem is the Estuary accent. If you need an example, google Jonathon Ross.

For the record, I don’t have a Cockney or even a Mockney accent. I am very home counties. [/quote]

Good point. I have an uncle who’s an Essex man. I can listen to him talk. But that Mockney is bloody awful. It sounds like someone stomped on a parrot. Even Madonna talks like that now.

Jonathon Ross and Brand are a perfect example of what the BBC has deteriorated to. They pay those assholes millions of pounds a year to drag the countries discourse into the gutter. The worst part is they aren’t even funny. Which makes them even worse.

The funny thing with Madonna is that unless he is doing a movie promo in the states Guy Ritchie has quite a cultivated accent. I train BJJ with him when I am in London. But he is the perfect example of a Mockney when he is in promo mode. I would expect Madonna to lose the accent now they are not together.

Wossy can actually be amusing at times however Brand I just don’t get. He tries to use long words and complex sentence structures to appear intelligent but more often than not he actually isn’t using them correctly.

When I am in the states, I mess around by going into Recieved Pronounciation mode. Gets you great service!

[quote]JamFly wrote:
CDM wrote:
That was a verbal shredding. One question though, why was Brown just sitting there laughing?

Here is one mans theory.

He seems to always have that smirk on his face. It screams, “Of course I’m guilty of ______!”

This Hannan guy just plain gets it on every level. The one thing that baffles me is how in the name of God he could’ve supported Obama during the campaign. He sees the light now.

He was on Hannity last week begging us, BEGGING, not to continue down the road the UK has, especially with universal healthcare citing it’s many horrors over there.

Ok, that might have finally been an acceptable reason to watch Hannity. I don’t know much about Daniel, but Mr. Hannan’s speech and what I’ve read on his blog seem to be genuinely encouraging for me. I’d have liked to at least hear him speak in an interview once, seeing as he’s a junior official and thus probably gets dick all publicity from the British news sources.

[quote]OneMoreRep wrote:

I think/hope/know there are Americans who know how to enunciate. I also don’t think I love Lucy is really reflective of anything in current American culture.

My main point, like I said is one that I’m sure most people have never heard of. It’s just to point out that there are a growing number of young Americans and a growing number of high schools and universities that are taking the study of rhetoric and the English language very seriously. The results are some astounding speakers and it has made speech and debate for some schools almost an extension of their D1 athletic programs. This type of commitment to communication is to my knowledge unrivaled by any other English speaking country.

The point is that if the “average American” or the “average American politician” is not as eloquent as their British counterparts (I put in quotations because those are some pretty broad generalizations to begin with) I hope that the gap is and will continue to decrease. [/quote]

I think you gross overestimate how eloquent American debate actually is. It is nothing like you would imagine, where people sit down and discuss issues using very whimsical language, it is more of a machine gun of facts that get spewed out of the debators’ mouth.

Here is a clip of some of the most “impressive” debators in the country. Sam Iola was actually ranked number one out of every high school debator in the country at this event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvNNtEVkckc

I hardly doubt this is what you imagined debate to be like at all. As for rhetoric and such I do not know if they even have some type of competition, so this is where the rub is, due to my lack of knowledge on the subject. If they do, that is great, I know now that many colleges offer rhetoric courses but I think the only competition where I can see it useful is in an essay style competition. I think it would be too hard to take over this established style of debate to be effective.
Sorry for the hijack.

Really glad you posted this I had no idea that the UK was in such dire straits.

[quote]riverhawk23 wrote:
OneMoreRep wrote:

I think/hope/know there are Americans who know how to enunciate. I also don’t think I love Lucy is really reflective of anything in current American culture.

My main point, like I said is one that I’m sure most people have never heard of. It’s just to point out that there are a growing number of young Americans and a growing number of high schools and universities that are taking the study of rhetoric and the English language very seriously. The results are some astounding speakers and it has made speech and debate for some schools almost an extension of their D1 athletic programs. This type of commitment to communication is to my knowledge unrivaled by any other English speaking country.

The point is that if the “average American” or the “average American politician” is not as eloquent as their British counterparts (I put in quotations because those are some pretty broad generalizations to begin with) I hope that the gap is and will continue to decrease.

I think you gross overestimate how eloquent American debate actually is. It is nothing like you would imagine, where people sit down and discuss issues using very whimsical language, it is more of a machine gun of facts that get spewed out of the debators’ mouth.

Here is a clip of some of the most “impressive” debators in the country. Sam Iola was actually ranked number one out of every high school debator in the country at this event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvNNtEVkckc

I hardly doubt this is what you imagined debate to be like at all. As for rhetoric and such I do not know if they even have some type of competition, so this is where the rub is, due to my lack of knowledge on the subject. If they do, that is great, I know now that many colleges offer rhetoric courses but I think the only competition where I can see it useful is in an essay style competition. I think it would be too hard to take over this established style of debate to be effective.
Sorry for the hijack.

Really glad you posted this I had no idea that the UK was in such dire straits.

[/quote]

As they say in the old country, that was bloody awful. There is absolutely no eloquence to that style of speech. They might as well be flinging poo at each other, it would be more entertaining.

It just proves what I wrote earlier. The British usage of the English language is at a much higher level than here in America. The American style of spitting words at people rapid fire is not a substitute for eloquence.

By allowing listeners a moment to digest each word and think about what was said, the British are able to convey more information with fewer words and get their point across.

After watching this new generation of super debaters on youtibe, I felt stunned for some seconds as I had to digest the fact riverhawk was probably serious.

Then I laughed until snot came out of my left nostril.

Goodnight guys, the PAWI subforum these days is too bloody satirical for my delicate tastes.

If that was satire…

it pwned!

riverhawk, what the fuck was that youtube. Is that seriously how they teach debating in the US?

What a waste. I debated during my A Levels and it was nothing like that.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
riverhawk, what the fuck was that youtube. Is that seriously how they teach debating in the US?

What a waste. I debated during my A Levels and it was nothing like that.[/quote]

Unfortunately yes. I knew a bunch of kids on the debate squad. They were quick talkers, but not quite like that. I don’t remember the exact level, but it wasn’t the top. My girlfriend at the time competed and she said that the top level was all about speed–apparently according to her it happened at the college level too. At the novice level you could still sound somewhat human, or at least intelligible without so much jargon, so it was more attractive to her.

It is indeed extremely sad. I don’t even know how you can web arguments and take notes for rebuttal at that high speed. Disgusting.

Actually that is how they teach debate. The clip is from a documentary called “Resolved.” In it a group of lower class black kids actually try and shake things up, and don’t us the machine gun style of debate. They sometimes receive perfect scores which is really uncommon. Yet this one clown of a judge doesn’t agree with them so they end up losing in the quarterfinals or something. They did little to change the style of debate in America. Sadly this is all fact.

Wow, you are absolutely right, this is what debate is

HOWEVER

that was not what I was referencing or a part of. What I was involved in was known as Forensics, sometimes referred to as Speech and debate.

It Is not, i repeat IS NOT what you saw.

It is speech making, acting and what I wrote. I agree though I am not a fan of that debating at all

Forensics is divided into three parts in high school an Acting Based/A speaking Based and what you saw a debate based. There are also separate debate tournaments

In college there is only acting and speech making, debate is totally separate

Unfortunately most college forensics do not posted on youtube, way too competitive. Some high school stuff is, most of it is acting, which is usually more exciting at least on the high school level. The best speech making i could find was this.

remember these are high school kids

common acting stuff you can find on youtube just search for duo interp, NFL, Forensics etc. That is more acting than speaking but still pretty rewarding.

Forensics aside, which was kind of off topic of me to begin with

I have not been wowed by the non U.S. English speakers I’ve encountered. Now this is entirely anecdotal but I’ve known two brits, a new zealnder, an Australian and two Irish people. None were terrible speakers but nothing wowing and these were either at my university or through business, so these were educated individuals. Some of the mystique here around them is because as some girls say “accents are hot” For men I think because we are not used to it it sounds cool, but I don’t confuse that with actually being a great speaker, or a better speaker than myself.

Also the extrapolation that because Daniel Hannan is a great speaker all English are are not great. I imagine not everyone is up to his level. And because the politicians in the US you’ve seen aren’t “good” then all Americans must not be able to enunciate or pause is also false. There are almost 300 million Americans, it’s tough to say none of us are great communicators.

I work with mainly Americans and have to say I haven’t noticed that they are particularly bad at public speaking compared to the Brits I have worked with.

I always get good feedback on presentations or speaches that I give, but I put that down to doing a fair amount of acting, debating and public speaking as a kid. Speak slowly and clearly, use modulation. Pause at relevent moments. Rule of 3. Overview, explanation, summary as the basic structure. A bit of aliteration and you are all good.

Also, teaching English as a foreign language for a bit helps with the annunciation.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Also, teaching English as a foreign language for a bit helps with the annunciation.[/quote]

Yes, I suppose it would, but realistically, how many times in your life will you have to inform a virgin that she’s pregnant with the son of God?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Also, teaching English as a foreign language for a bit helps with the annunciation.

Yes, I suppose it would, but realistically, how many times in your life will you have to inform a virgin that she’s pregnant with the son of God?[/quote]

Bravo :o)