[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sento- I know what you’re saying, but really, McCann is showing cop tactics, not UFC stuff. I wouldn’t worry too much about guys “with a good grappling base” when you’re arresting drunks or drug addicts or whatever. It’s possible you come across it but not likely. [/quote]
Yeah, I realize that. But why not teach tactics that will work even if they have a good grappling base? Those will still work on someone who doesn’t. The opposite is not usually true.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sento- I know what you’re saying, but really, McCann is showing cop tactics, not UFC stuff. I wouldn’t worry too much about guys “with a good grappling base” when you’re arresting drunks or drug addicts or whatever. It’s possible you come across it but not likely. [/quote]
Yeah, I realize that. But why not teach tactics that will work even if they have a good grappling base? Those will still work on someone who doesn’t. The opposite is not usually true.[/quote]
Just as a point of interest, quite a number of our local bad guys train MMA regularly. In fact, a few of our really bad guys are extremely skilled fighters with lots of ring and street experience. They spend time thinking about and discussing how they would apply their craft to cops, if the situation arose. MMA is really popular with the criminal element, especially the younger guys coming up. Just something to bear in mind when considering response training.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sento- I know what you’re saying, but really, McCann is showing cop tactics, not UFC stuff. I wouldn’t worry too much about guys “with a good grappling base” when you’re arresting drunks or drug addicts or whatever. It’s possible you come across it but not likely. [/quote]
Yeah, I realize that. But why not teach tactics that will work even if they have a good grappling base? Those will still work on someone who doesn’t. The opposite is not usually true.[/quote]
Just as a point of interest, quite a number of our local bad guys train MMA regularly. In fact, a few of our really bad guys are extremely skilled fighters with lots of ring and street experience. They spend time thinking about and discussing how they would apply their craft to cops, if the situation arose. MMA is really popular with the criminal element, especially the younger guys coming up. Just something to bear in mind when considering response training.
[/quote]
Yup, the growing popularity of MMA is one of the main reasons why I made that point. Heck, even a fairly athletic person with no MMA experience is going to be hard to off balance like McCann does in the video (unless you’re a beast and have one hell of a bridge).
Why teach techniques that only work if the opponent is clueless, physically inferior, etc…? That’s like those self defense courses that teach to throw a backwards headbutt to the face or backwards hammer fist to the groin of someone who is rear bear hugging you. That crap only works if the attacker has no clue what they’re doing or how to position themselves correctly.
Like Ms Parker’s recent thread illustrated, you may only have a few seconds to escape/respond before it’s too late, and since most people will freeze/go into shock initially, that might only allow for one chance to defend the position. Why waste it on a technique that is only going to work if the opponent has no idea what they’re doing, or is a physical ignoramus, or is considerably weaker, etc…?
If someone has you mounted and you are on a hard surface, it’s not going to take long or take too many landed blows before you are in some serious hurt. You’d better be sure that your defense is going to work, even if they know what they’re doing, because you might not get another chance at it.
[quote]Malchir wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
Loren Christensen
[/quote]
Oh, I gotta try this variation. The “armdrag” as we call it is a very useful move when dealing with semi-resisting guys or when coming from the side to an escalating argument with pushing and pulling. I usually power through resistance(the putting for on the elbow and “circling”), but this variation might be something to teach the less powerful bouncers.
[/quote]
i use this a lot when i go to handcuff someone and they get squirelly on me…it’s easy to incoporate knees, trips, and two-person takedowns as well. prolly one of the most high percentage techniques i’ve used… plus i don’t get hurt, and the person i’m taking down rarely does as well.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sento- I know what you’re saying, but really, McCann is showing cop tactics, not UFC stuff. I wouldn’t worry too much about guys “with a good grappling base” when you’re arresting drunks or drug addicts or whatever. It’s possible you come across it but not likely. [/quote]
Yeah, I realize that. But why not teach tactics that will work even if they have a good grappling base? Those will still work on someone who doesn’t. The opposite is not usually true.[/quote]
Just as a point of interest, quite a number of our local bad guys train MMA regularly. In fact, a few of our really bad guys are extremely skilled fighters with lots of ring and street experience. They spend time thinking about and discussing how they would apply their craft to cops, if the situation arose. MMA is really popular with the criminal element, especially the younger guys coming up. Just something to bear in mind when considering response training.
[/quote]
yeah, same for us. i think that’s always been true, at least have some type of fight training (boxing, etc)…
this is also why i’ve been so frustrated in getting my co-workers in the train. when i was brand new to BJJ we did some groundfighting, and i stomped nearly all my co-workers… i explaine afterwards that technically speaking, my grappling sucks and they need to train. only a few took me up on it…
just an update on this:
i picked up Solo Training, Street Stoppers (co-written by Mark Mireles) and Defensive Tactics by Loren Christensen, Small Circle Jujitsu by Wally Jay, and Combatives for Street Survival by Kelly McCann.
all good stuff…
i think i like Christensen’s stuff the best, at least in reference to what i’m looking for. his stuff is flexible in application, but he gives tons of tips how to train and implement techniques, as well as officer/street survival tips. example: when you got a dude you know if gonna fight/run that you’re gonna arrest, hand them back their ID, and when they reach for it, drop it. the “lag-time” when they reach for it give you a second to act before they can react… his material is written for cops who are trying to implement DT training/programs. he’s also very realistic about cross training, as well as lifting, cardio and HIIT/anareboic training. his DT techniques aren’t neccessarily new to me, but they are good ones, and have details (i.e. a whole chapter on off-balancing) that really enhance it all.
Wally Jay’s book is really good, but with a lot of his joint lock techniques, a book does not to them justice. prlly one of those guys you gotta train with to truly grasp his genius. still, good book for BJJ, judo or akido types…
McCann’s book is good…not as much material as i had hoped. from what i’ve gathered, he puts most of his training in DVD, so i think that’s why this isn’t up to snuff. one thing that is top-notch is his SPEAR/clinch work…great explanation for 100 different scenarios. this book is more geared towards street survival vs. LEO defensife tactics.
another book i got is the Bare Knuckle Boxer’s Companion (by David Lindholm and Ulf Karlsson)… while i don’t intend on starting my own Fight Club, i thought the info in here would be applicable to wht i’m looking for. well, this book is okay, as far as teaching striking bare vs. gloved, and some of the history. overwise, most of the blocking and combinations are quite rudimentary. i coulda done without getting this, but i’m sure i would have eventually bought it down the road, just out of sheer curiosity.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
Wally Jay’s book is really good, but with a lot of his joint lock techniques, a book does not to them justice. prlly one of those guys you gotta train with to truly grasp his genius. still, good book for BJJ, judo or akido types…
[/quote]
Jiu-Jitsu in general is one of those things you have to actually feel to appreciate/learn. Small Circle JJ even more so IMO, since it is very technical and due to much of the art occurring at the wrist rather than using the whole arm/shoulder/body like some other traditional JJ styles some of the details are hard to see (especially in still photographs).
Here are a couple vids of Prof Jay teaching his Small Circle JJ:
Gracie Combatives, used by us army.
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Gracie Combatives, used by us army.[/quote]
Absolutely not.
I liked the Kelly Mccann stuff.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Gracie Combatives, used by us army.[/quote]
Absolutely not.[/quote]
i agree…while some sweeps and basic positioning/submission training is good, it’s not what i’m doing at work. as someone who’s done MACP and BJJ, i think i can say i like some of it, but arresting people is a different animal than most systems out there.
Has anyone ever used the Tony Blaur full armor suit? If so would you be kind enough to give me review of how you feel it works.
Thanks
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Gracie Combatives, used by us army.[/quote]
Absolutely not.[/quote]
i agree…while some sweeps and basic positioning/submission training is good, it’s not what i’m doing at work. as someone who’s done MACP and BJJ, i think i can say i like some of it, but arresting people is a different animal than most systems out there.
[/quote]
Actually I think submission grappling, BJJ, Gracie JJ, Judo, what have you has great application as a safety rope. When the back end kicks out and shit really starts to turn sideways groundfighting may give you, or one of your fellow officers a second chance to get control. Control may allow them to stand up, break contact, or in true safety rope fashion just hang on and stay alive until back up can get to them. Where a lot of grapplers go wrong is thinking that a blast double or a great guard game should be option one.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Gracie Combatives, used by us army.[/quote]
Absolutely not.[/quote]
i agree…while some sweeps and basic positioning/submission training is good, it’s not what i’m doing at work. as someone who’s done MACP and BJJ, i think i can say i like some of it, but arresting people is a different animal than most systems out there.
[/quote]
Actually I think submission grappling, BJJ, Gracie JJ, Judo, what have you has great application as a safety rope. When the back end kicks out and shit really starts to turn sideways groundfighting may give you, or one of your fellow officers a second chance to get control. Control may allow them to stand up, break contact, or in true safety rope fashion just hang on and stay alive until back up can get to them. Where a lot of grapplers go wrong is thinking that a blast double or a great guard game should be option one.
[/quote]
right. i just said some of it is good…
but arresting people is different from using sacriface throws, pulling guard, etc… some things apply and are quite useful, but some are terrible. same with Krav…while a badass self-defense system, there are certain things i can’t do when i’m arresting someone, unless it’s a deadly force issue.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
right. i just said some of it is good…
but arresting people is different from using sacriface throws, pulling guard, etc… some things apply and are quite useful, but some are terrible. same with Krav…while a badass self-defense system, there are certain things i can’t do when i’m arresting someone, unless it’s a deadly force issue.[/quote]
cycobushmaster,
I appologize if you took that as a shot. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, and probably not Irish for that matter. I think we are on the same page, or maybe talking past each other. I may not be clear on what “pulling guard” means. Are we talking about trying to secure a closed guard as a priority, which I happen to think may be a “life line” to prevent being mauled, or are we talking about trying to go from a neutral standing position to guard, I always called this “jumping to guard”?
I quoted more to indicate which sub-discussion I was referencing than to voice disagreement. My position is essentially that much of what is criticized/wrong with the way BJJ is practiced (working off the back, willingness/eagerness to get both parties on the ground, ect.) often becomes “right” when things go bad. I think you are putting this in the “some of it is good” category.
For arrest/control I think aikijutsu and classical jujutsu are pretty close to ideal. Christensen uses those as a base for his control techniques. I have his defensive tactics book and really like the curriculum, I just think that a more nuanced explanation/use of the techniques is warranted. The videos Sento posted with Wally Jay show what I mean. My personal experience when trying to solve the “going hands on” problem with restraint techniques is to start with the aikijutsu/classical jujutsu techniques and then if things go sideways wrestling/judo/sub-grappling/bjj seems to be the order of the day.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
right. i just said some of it is good…
but arresting people is different from using sacriface throws, pulling guard, etc… some things apply and are quite useful, but some are terrible. same with Krav…while a badass self-defense system, there are certain things i can’t do when i’m arresting someone, unless it’s a deadly force issue.[/quote]
cycobushmaster,
I appologize if you took that as a shot. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, and probably not Irish for that matter. I think we are on the same page, or maybe talking past each other. I may not be clear on what “pulling guard” means. Are we talking about trying to secure a closed guard as a priority, which I happen to think may be a “life line” to prevent being mauled, or are we talking about trying to go from a neutral standing position to guard, I always called this “jumping to guard”?
I quoted more to indicate which sub-discussion I was referencing than to voice disagreement. My position is essentially that much of what is criticized/wrong with the way BJJ is practiced (working off the back, willingness/eagerness to get both parties on the ground, ect.) often becomes “right” when things go bad. I think you are putting this in the “some of it is good” category.
For arrest/control I think aikijutsu and classical jujutsu are pretty close to ideal. Christensen uses those as a base for his control techniques. I have his defensive tactics book and really like the curriculum, I just think that a more nuanced explanation/use of the techniques is warranted. The videos Sento posted with Wally Jay show what I mean. My personal experience when trying to solve the “going hands on” problem with restraint techniques is to start with the aikijutsu/classical jujutsu techniques and then if things go sideways wrestling/judo/sub-grappling/bjj seems to be the order of the day.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
no prob…i was in kind of a shit mood yesterday, so i apologize. i agree that classical jujitsu has a lot of useful techniques, ie.e Wally Jay/Loren Christinesen.
i meant pulling guard, as in people that pull guard while standing, or using it as their “go-to” position. i certainly agree that it works if you got taken down and someone’s trying to ground and pound ya. we actually do a lot of choke counters, guard to standup, and sweeps where i work, as well as wrestling counters (since we’re in Iowa).
btw, if you have the cash, i’d suggest checking out “Street Stoppers” by Mark Mireles and Loren Christensen…good stuff.