T Nation

Good God Those Are Low!!

Just got my T-levels tested and got my results today. WOW!! I feel like I’ve lost my manhood. Total Testosterone = 238 ng/dl


Free Testosterone = 2.07%


Bioavailable Percent = 12.7%


Bioavaialbe Testosterone = 19.4 ng/dl

Those are incredibly low for a 19 year old huh? Yes, I’m only 19, believe it or not. I mean, I knew I was low, based on my personality and just had a hunch, but man!! that is friggin low. All of my results were listed below the norms, which I may add are incredibly wide ranges. Welp, I need your help experts. I was actually thinking of doing a cycle, my first cyle but now I’m rethinking it. Should I go see a specialist first to see if he could prescribe me something?? I wanted to try a few 2 on 4 off cycles with Winstrol and hopefully a class I steroid as well. I wonder if a doc will prescribe me something and if so how much of it. I’m ready to jack up my t-rone and start building some muscle. For informational purposes only: I’m 19, 6’1, 190 lbs. with 8% bodyfat. Serious/smart lifting and eating for 5 years.

You’re right, those levels are pretty low, although, I’ve seen lower. As a first line of defense though, I’d try to get your endogenous t-levels up before opting for replacement. Replacement generally means for life, so I’d think about that first. Try getting a hold of some clomiphene with some Tribex, maybe even some Nolvadex or even Arimidex as an
adjunct(expensive). Do every little thing that you can to get your own production of testosterone up and then get tested again. Consume plenty of monounsat. fats, of course get 8 hours of sleep. Eat every 3-4 hours. There are a lot of things to consider before you go for replacement. You could have done a number of things that may have skewed the results.

If all else fails, then consider replacement. As far as seeing a doc goes, I’d personally try an anti-aging doc first. Although, at your levels, most docs will prescribe some sort of testosterone replacement. I really doubt they will prescribe anything like Winstrol or Oxandrolone or any 17-AA. The guys I know won’t. At 19, I can pretty much assure you that he’ll go with straight t-replacement. What the doc will do is probably offer you a choice of injectable testosterone or Androgel. He will probably give you the injection and see how you feel after two weeks. Then he may switch you to Androgel, which has a similar design to Androsol. I actually like Androgel, although, people that I know use between two and three times the normal dosage(100-150mg/day) plus they stack it with Androsol. They use Androsol on legs, back, chest, Androgel on arms, shoulders, abdomen. Hope this helps.

Cy and others: My goal is to gain 25 lbs. of lbm so I’m not sure that Clomid or Armidex or if I go the doc and he gives me Androgel will help me achieve my goal. Yeah it may increase my T levels but not as much as I want it!! Secondly, I’ve used Androsol twice before (2 cycles) and only received minimal benefits and that’s why I think I’m ready for a serious stack. I thought Winny might be good but now I’m reading a lot about Brock’s suggestions. Should I try his Gramabol cycle?? More help needed. Thanks.

Just as a point of trivia, I don’t believe
that either methenolone nor stanozolal have
been “approved” by the FDA bureaucrats for
any use in the US. To the best of my
knowledge, “legally,” people in the US are
limited to T, nandrolone, oxandrolone,
oxymetholone, boldenone(?),
methyltestosterone, and ethlestrenol. I may
have missed some. Brock would know. But I do
know that methenolone and stan are not
“approved” which is a real shame. :slight_smile:

Scott, your reply to Cy seems to be, “Yeah, yeah, all that’s fine, but I want it all and I want it now, dammit!” I think you should follow Cy’s suggestions first before you hit the heavy roids. Yes, you have some low levels of hormones, but hell, you’re also 19 years old. I hate to see a guy say he’s tapped out genetically when he’s still a teenager. Try Cy’s advice first, wait for N-17E to come out and give that a shot. Then, and only then, you can start playing around with the heavy stuff. Trust me, you’ll be glad you did once you’re over age 25. And who’s to say you can’t reach your goals using Cy’s advice and seriously re-analyzing your diet and training? Honestly, it just sounds like you’re in a hurry.

I don’t train with you and I don’t know how “strict” you are, so I can’t say one way or the other. I will say that 25lbs is achievable via diet. It may take you a lot longer, but it’s possible. If you want 25 pounds in a month, that’s another story. I think you have your mind set about what you want to do.

Mr. Free ext. why would you dare challenge me to a trivia on drugs? Come on buddy! I’m just giving you a hard time. Anyhow, you’re incorrect about stanozolol, it is FDA approved for angioedema, as well as Lichen Sclerosus ET Atrophicus. And even though it’s not approved for androgen replacement, it can still be prescribed under an off label use for that disorder.

HAHAHA… hey man I’m sorry… this is just so damn funny! Scott this is your third attempt and still no luck? The first time you posted, Bodz & co said no way should a 19 y/o take roids… just too young and there was that whole debate. The second post (I believe you posted under the name of ‘The Machine’ or something) tried and failed again (I know it was you man!). Now the third time… you even have medical proof and the guys are still telling ya no way. I think that saying you have very low T… then blurting out that your goal is 25 lbs extra gave it away. Better luck with your fourth post!

PS – this isn’t a flame or anything… I just find watching this funny… :wink:

Cy, thanks for the info.

Tek and Cy and others: I’ve already gained about 25 lbs. of lbm or more by dieting correctly. I eat correctly, train correctly and have been for 5 years. I eat every 2 hours. I eat 5000-6000 calories. I don’t do cutting phases. I bulk. Problem is I can’t gain any more weight. I also get 8-10 hours of sleep a night. Although I’m in college, I’ve managed to keep on track with my training/dieting/sleeping. Now that you know I’m doing stuff correctly, maybe it changes your opinion, maybe not. If not, I still respect your opinion to not use steroids at my age. And Tek, I’m not in a hurry. Hell, I’ve been training for 2 years now with minimal gains. Two years ago I was about 190 with 10% bodyfat. I’m now 190 at 8% bodyfat. My bench press has went down 50 lbs. Luckily my legs have grown though. However, I am ready to start growing. If I wasn’t looking to gain muscle size and strength then what the hell do I train so hard and eat so strictly for. I think using gear is the best answer. I hope to gain 25-35 lbs. of lbm by the 1st of January 2001. I’ve evaluated the risks/benefits and feel like I’m ready. This isn’t something that I’ve just thought about for 1 week. More like 4 months. Got my T-levels back and now its time to take action. I need advice on what to take. People like Bill Roberts or Brock Strasser who will give me help on a stack are the people I need to respond to this post. Thanks for the time and help.

Jagin: I posted under a different name for a reason. It doesn’t concern you. It was not for the reason that you think. I will no longer post under another name because I don’t care if the person I know, who checks this board occasionally, knows that I’m going to use steroids. Good day Sir.

Scott, some of the information that you’re providing us is misleading. If you want us to help, you need to give us the straight facts. For example, you said you went from 190lbs at 10% two years ago to 190lbs at 8% now. That represents an increase in lbm of only 4lbs(from 171 to 175). So over the last 2 years you’ve also lost 4lbs of fat while consuming a diet of 5000-6000 calories!!?? And no cutting cycles!? Sorry, but I don’t beleive that. Also, TEK was right: you are very much in a hurry. What else can you say for wanting to gain 30-odd pounds of lbm in 3 months!? And when its taken you 5 YEARS to gain that amount with strict training and dieting! Look, its fine for you to be keen to use 'roids, but you will get better advice if you be honest with us.

Sorry for misleading you. I no longer do cutting cycles because I lose too much muscle mass. I have a very fast metabolism. I lost the fat from doing the Anabolic Diet probably. I didn’t always eat 5000-6000 calories. Typically around 3000-4000 but have been eating in the 5’s and 6’s for a few months now. I don’t think I’m in a hurry because I do not want it at all costs. I’m concerned with the health aspects. I do however want to make gains. I think 25 lbs. of lbm is reasonable for 3 months. Especially for a first time user with low T levels. Again, sorry for misleading you if I did. It was not intended.

One last thing, how many of you guys would consider using steroids if you hadn’t seen noticeable gains in size or strength in 2 almost 3 years, tried Androsol/Tribex and didn’t notice much, had been eating right, training right and sleeping enough for 5 years, and had low T-levels like I do?? Thats the question you should ask yourself before stating your opinion. If you did do that, then thank you for putting yourself in my shoes. However, I know there are people out there who are pro-steroids and who would advocate me using them. Where are you guys?

I think I posted this before to you. Your best bet is to do the Gramabol cycle with d-bol for the first few weeks. I remember Brock advocating that the first cycle should consist of as much testosterone you could get your hands on. I think the Gramabol cycle is good enough and is what he truly meant. Duchaine made this recommendation as well. At least a gram of test a week. You could then maintain or increase size with a 2-on/4-off approach.

Hey Scott, like I said in my post, it wasn’t intended as a flame. Chill. Anyways, moving on, I’m a roid newbie myself, but have researched quite a bit. Gramabol seems a bit vicious for a first timer. Roids act different for everyone, right, it’s genetics, right? Surely starting off something less is better so you can see if you’re more prone to certain side effects?

Right now I’m considering 400 deca 200 test for 2 weeks on and 4 weeks off. Ok this is where I ask for some advice:

I think I had light gyno during puberty (natural). About 2 years ago I did 200 mg test for 10 weeks. Of course… back then I wasn’t even eating properly. Ok… now… I notice that I have a little bit of fluid under my nipples. Sometimes… I think if it’s cold, they go flat, though. Is this gyno or what? If it is… should I stay clear of the roids completely?

The Gramabol cycle looks very appealing on surface. Taking that much steroids is 1) going to cost me a lot of money and 2) adds more risks then I might be willing to take. That is why I need either first time users opinions and/or experts advice on what I should do? Should I go with the 10 week gramabol cycle, taking 1 gram of test a week and some clomid,or should I play conservative and try something like Winstrol and possibly Deca. So many options I guess. I wouldn’t even consider taking as much as the gramabol cycle says so if it wasn’t Brock advocating it. I can afford $200/week and my biggest concern with a 10 week cycle is the psychological addiction. I think the 2 on 4 off aproach would help with that. If not, maybe a 6 or 8 week cycle at most. Suggestions?? Jagin, let me know if you start your first cycle and how it goes. You’re relatively young as I am and I’m curious to how you make out. Thanks.

Scott, I’ll let you know. My end year exams are in a week or two and I don’t want to be starting my first proper cycle at the same time. So I’ll only start end of November.

Thanks for giving us more specific details on your training background. Its sounds like you need some pharmacological help. However, given that your body has hardly grown in the last 5 years I wouldn’t expect a cycle to dump 30lbs of lbm on you in 3 months. As you said, you’re a very hard-gainer. Shooting for 15-20lbs might be more realistic and prevent you from upping your dosages to acheive the magic 30lbs. Also, I would recommend getting some consultation with someone in the business who knows their shit and you can trust. Someone like Bill or Brock. It will probably cost you money, but you have to ask yourself how important your health and physique is to you. Good luck!

Scott, I replied a couple of times to one of your previous posts. I’m going to try one last time here. You seem like a smart guy, so please think seriously about what I’m saying.

  1. In your initial post (the one that caused all the controversy), lots of people wrote in with differing views on steroid use at your age. NONE of the older guys supported it. Even 25-6 year olds wrote in to tell you to wait. That should tell you something.

  2. Neither Brock nor Bill have responded with advice re your request for a cycle. TC has written that there is no good reason for a teenager to take gear. Even Cy, another 19-year-old, has tried to dissuade you from rushing into a cycle. That should also tell you something.

  3. You seem to think that you’re at your genetic limit because you aren’t gaining much any more. Forgive me for saying this (time for a little tough love), but this is just stupid. Hell, man, your bones haven’t even stopped growing yet! How the fuck could you be at your limit?!?!

Most people are at a training plateau most of the time. It’s frustrating, but that’s just the way it is. At 6"1’ and 190, you’ve got plenty of room to grow yet. Your body is still changing, and will continue to do so for another 6-7 years. I’m an ectomorph, and like you, my metabolism (even pushing 40) is very fast. However, it has slowed down from when I was a teenager. Also, I grew (vertically) another 1/2 inch when I was 21 years old. After several years (not just two) without gains, and after 23 years in the gym, I suddenly put on another six pounds of muscle this past Spring.

What I’m trying to say here is that it’s still WAY too early in the game for you to think that you really have a handle on your bod. I understand that you know a lot about training and nutrition. But YOU’RE STILL GROWING! Also, you yourself have written that you’re worried about the possibility of psychological addiction. Judging from your posts, I would say that this is a very real possibility in your case. When you shoot those extra 25 pounds into yourself, are you going to be satisfied? Or are you going to think, “Hey, that was cool. And I didn’t hurt myself a bit!” . . . and do another cycle for even more quick’n’easy muscle?

What you’re thinking about isn’t some abstract, Ivory-tower issue of personal freedom of choice. It’s a real world decision, with real world consequences. It’s your body and your health. You say you’ve weighed the risks. Well, if you do the cycle and everything works out fine, what have you gained? You’ll be bigger and happier, right? Now, what if something goes wrong? In the previous discussion, one 20-something guy wrote that he had joint problems from steroid use too early. This is going to be with him for the rest of his life. Do you really want that? Is it really worth it? I think you know the answer.

scott,

i’m a relative newbie to the steroid game as well, been planning on doing my first cycle for about 1.5 years and i’m just now getting around to it. i believe i’m going to do 500mg of test per week for 8 weeks with 30 mg of dbol for the first four. i’m going to use clomid @ 50mg eod throughout the cycle and then every day for the 2 weeks after the cycle. hopefully this will get me about 25# of mass. no offense to anybody that has posted here (many of the posts were much more educated than anything i could have put together) but if you want a forum dedicated to drugs you might want to post your ? over at www.goheavy.com/forums/drugs the people over there are quite helpful and it never hurts to get several opinions. best of luck with your cycle.

burt