Thanks for your help, Scott and TT…few questions and comments:

“I am presently taking cytolyse to reduce swelling after my arthroscopic knee surgery 2 weeks ago and the results are amazing. It is available only to docs, but you can find it on the web (made by tyler), or use wobenzyme (there have been previous threads on this) which is very similar.”
–>While I will look into this, what do you have to say about glucosamine?

“As far as adressing the underlying problem, you may need to adress the balance between pushing and pulling movements (are you benching more then you e.g. row?). Finding a really good physical therapist and/or an ART practitioner would also be helpful. Docs tend not to be too helpful for this kind of thing (and I are one).”

–>I work(ed) back plenty, including plenty of rowing movements. Ironically, it was injured during the 80% 1RM 4 rep push/pull day of ABBH – flat bench and BB rows.
I’m sure ART and PT would be great, but I don’t have much dough or time to spend on these things…I’d prefer to take a supplement if possible and ease myself back into full on training.

just an update:

Haven’t purchased Gluc/Chond/MSM yet, but I think I may be on my way to recovery…pulldown motions and pressing/flying motions of all sorts cause discomfort, but rowing feels fine. I did some cable rowing work tonight, along with arms, which I’ve been working 2 x/week since the injury.

Glucosamine is great, but watch out for the too cheap/drug store versions. They do nothing.

In fact, I love Glucosamine so much, it’s the only supplement I will buy a new bottle if I have to travel and am worried about customs. I will not go without it.

I move better at 27 with it than at 16 without it.

Oh, I forgot, do not take it if you are overweight/overfat or have any diabetes problems. It can end badly.

“It can end badly”…what do you mean here?!

please expand on that last post. are you referring to the possibility that glucosamine can cause insulin resistance?

I’ll explain and give examples for my warnings. I can only back up 1 of the 2 warning.

If you are over fat. It can cause high blood pressure. I know this because my friend who is heavy started taking it on my recommendation. He’s knees felt great but after a few days his blood pressure became real high. Not making the connection himself he went to his doctor and doctor said it was the glucosamine.

Proof that the doctor was not just badmouthing a supplement. My friend stopped taking it, and his knees and blood pressure returned to normal.

As for diabetes. I cannot back up.

Of all the people that I talk to about it. At least 2 have said they could not because they are diabetic. I do not know if they are guessing or if they researched it, but if you are diabetic, I would check with your doctor just to be safe. But I have no real proof. Sorry if I’m starting a new urban legend about the dangers of glucosamine.

RE: diabtes and glucosamine.

There was some info suggesting that glucosamine adversely affected glucose tolerance (including and article by Cy Wilson). However since then, there was at least one study which looked prospectively at that issue and did not find any adverse effect on glucose tolerance. If you are already diabetic monitoring your blood sugar after starting anything new is only common sense, but I’m about to start glucosamine for my knee arthritis and am not worried.

Here is one reference from a quick pubmed search:

Mol Cell Biochem. 2001 Sep;225(1-):85-91. Related Articles, Links

Effects of oral glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate alone and in combination on the metabolism of SHR and SD rats.

Echard BW, Talpur NA, Funk KA, Bagchi D, Preuss HG.

Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Georgetown University Medical Center Washington, DC 20007, USA.

Glucosamine (G), often combined with chondroitin sulfate (CS), is a popular natural supplement used widely to treat osteoarthritis. However, use of glucosamine has been linked to development of insulin resistance. To assess the association between glucosamine and insulin resistance more closely, we challenged two rat strains highly sensitive to sugar-induced insulin resistance-Sprague-Dawley (SD) and Spontaneously Hypertensive (SHR) rats. Since elevations of systolic blood pressure (SBP) have been found to be an early and highly sensitive sign of insulin resistance in these two rat strains, we used this parameter as our primary endpoint. Four groups of both rat strains received either no agent (control), G, CS, or a combination of both for 9 weeks. The intake of each agent was calculated to be approximately 3-7 times comparable to human dose. Throughout the study, SBP of both strains consuming the two ingredients alone and in combination were not elevated. Rather, they were significantly lower than control, contrary to what is found in glucose-induced insulin resistance in rats. Over the study period, body weights of the four groups of SD and SHR did not vary significantly. Furthermore, no consistent trends in circulating glucose concentrations were found among the four different groups in the two strains after oral challenge with glucose. Finally, no significant histological differences were found in hearts, kidneys, and livers among the various groups of SHR and SD. From the above result, we conclude that glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate given alone or together do not produce insulin resistance or other related perturbations in two rat strains highly sensitive to sugar-induced insulin resistance.

PMID: 11716368 

8-12 grams of MSM a day works wonders for me.

Like the other supps, you need a couple of days before full effect sets in.

And if you`re worrying about diabetes, 12 grams a day of MSM was reported to reduce need for insulin shots in diabetics.

Food for thought. TampaTerry and I had a nice exchange on this topic a couple of months back. She`s the reference, as always!

Thanks very much sugarfree and scottl. i think i will continue my glucosamine use.

[quote]Chris Shugart wrote:
Just a note, Doug Kalman did a great article on this topic for us. It should run in a week or two.

So Chris, It has been a week or two - where is the article?

You will laugh but I found 2 things to work great with joint issues…

Gelatin (sugar free jello)
Vit C

Thats it. Simple really. Whenever a client comes in with serious joint issues or developing ones I ask them to try a bowl of sugar free jello a night and a gram of C with it. The results have been spectacular to sy nothing less (for the dollar)

With the horses (yeah we train horses too) we use a drug called Adequan its Polysulfated Glycosaminoglycan and that works, oh man its liquid gold. It’s Glucasomine Sulfate basically, BUT we inject it, when taken orally for the horses, it has far less effect.

Maybe what we need is an injectable form for humans???

Ya, this was a new one on me, but from Will Brink:

“Although bone metabolism is quite complex and not fully understood, there is a growing number of studies showing the intake of just ten grams per day of hydrolyzed gelatin is effective in greatly reducing pain, improving mobility and overall bone/cartilage health. Several randomized, double-blinded, crossover trials have shown improvements in symptoms related to joint pain (Adem et. al. Therapiewoche, 1991). The people at Knox (the Jello people) have made a product specifically for bone health and joints called NutraJoint. It contains hydrolyzed gelatin, calcium , and vitamin C. Calcium is of obvious importance to bone health and vitamin C is an essential and limiting nutrient for connective tissue formation. NutraJoint is cheap, has no side effects, and tastes good. I recommend one packet mixed with OJ with breakfast for people suffering from joint pain.”