T Nation

Give Me Your Best Argument, Liberal or Conservative


Ok, instead of the ad nauseum arguments about this little aspect of a topic or that, Give me a paragraph or two, or ten if you need it. Give me your basic argument of the major ideas you support and why. Taxes, Rights, Power, Wealth, Religion. Spin me a web that you would like to call home little spider.

I would like to institute one rule into this thread and I ask that you all abide. No one can discuss someones post, or parts of it, unless they themselves have posted thier basic argument. And Orion, please go into a little detail, one sentance or one word replies are weak.

I want to do this because I want to know what everyone else thinks. But I don't want to learn that through heated arguments over topics. I want to know what YOU think your core beliefs are. There are no wrong answeres.

Thanks for playing!




  • Democrats lost their message of tolerance and middle class representatives.
  • Illegals are a big problem and needs to be stamped out.
  • Borders should now be closed for a period of time to newcomers.
  • Repeal HC. Instead..Subsidize and expand Medicaid for the "less fortunate" w/ Tort Reform.
  • We need to lower tax rates to encourage growth
  • Eliminate special interest (union/corps) campaign donations.
  • Tax the hell out of Chinese made products.
  • Flat tax rates.
  • Term Limits for Congress.
  • 1 bill = 1 law.. and nothing more, nothing less...post to internet for community.
  • Get out of Afganistan....we no longer have a clear mission.
  • Enforce voters rights laws for all citizens.
  • Stop providing federal and state subsidies to ILLEGALS!
  • Require work for welfare.
  • MAKE OUR TEENAGERS learn a work ethic.
  • Racial profiling is OK when it comes to security and border control.
  • Give Chris Christie an award! Clone him.
  • Reclassify Islam from a religion to a political and theological movement.
  • Reclassify Politically Correct to "politically Muzzled speech".

Not arguments, but points.


Use your brain. See what works.
Believe in cause and effect. That will make a liberal.

For instance. Bush's tax cuts bankrupted the US. Clintons economic policy created a surplus and politicians were planning on investing that in infrastructure and education. Thank God Bush came along and took care of that problem.


i won't vote for a candidate who is unable to read Latin and Greek.

in the 70's, i could have voted for virtualy any of them.

now, i'm forced to vote for a christian democrat or a far right candidate

i will have to become a monarchist before the end of my life.


Can we add another rule if you don't live in the U.S. don't assume you know anything that goes on here. Cuz you probably don't, you just see what someone want you too.

I believe in individual liberty and freedom. That we should all be responsible for and take accountability for our own actions.

I think instead of the government taxing to provide services, we should pay for the services we use. Thee are only a few common good services that apply across the board, those should be the only things needed to budget.

Instead of relying on handouts from the government we should be responsible, plan ahead and let the community take care of itself.

The government should not provide support for medical needs, should not send tax money to other countries, should not subsidize housing, cars, cell phones, clothes, food , anything. These are things has been done without government in a more efficient manner.

I believe the country needs to go back to producing goods again. Farming and manufacturing. We have nothing of value. We need to be allowed to fail so we learn to innovate, to perform better.

And if we must have government run entitlements, paying into them should be voluntary. No one should be forced to pay for something for someone else, that is not available to them.

I think school's have absolutely no right to tax anyone. Parent's should pay for their children's education. If they can't they bust their ass to find the support. Don't have children unless you can afford them.

There should be no such thing as annual property tax or eminant domain. If you own property you own it, this is a democratic republic, not a feudal system. If a county or borough chosses to provide service everyone with residence in said area should be charged equally fo acces to said service.

I believe we need to go back to a justice system where judges don't make up laws. Where victims have a right to protect themselves, families and property and criminals lose their rights. prison is expensive, it shouldn't be, it should teach them a lesson.

on the topic of taxes I reference the 5th ammendmant, "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." you cannot take something (money) without just compensation, and well giving anything to someone else is not.

and I believe there should be an increased import tarrif on all imported goods and serives. don't make it more adventageous to send jobs elsewhere.

helping others should be voluntary.


-Vote for Ron Paul and end the fed.
-Make those who ruin lives (Enron, Madoff, etc) an example and use the death chair. I argue that they destroy more lives than somebody who kills one person.
-More transparency with our tax money
-No money withheld for healthcare. I never get sick, but pay for fat ass slobs, drunks, and other scum to have healthcare.
-Illegal to have kids you cannot afford. If you live in a trailer with 6 kids you are a cancer.



Stop lying about the Clinton surplus...

http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16 (those are treasury numbers fyi)

Not that I wouldn't take that deficit at this point mind you, but the point stands...you guys can't help but lie.

Disinformation and propaganda...Stalin would be proud of you modern leftists.


Agreed - and it wouldn't be so foolish if Wreckless didn't preface his claim by saying this opinion is underwritten by smart belief in "cause and effect".

Re: surplus: it was always a projection anyway (even if you take the government's favorable numbers) based on tax revenue generated by the 90s capital markets boom - it was never some big pile of cash waiting to be spent. That revenue stream was never sustainable (as we all learned), so the surplus was more of a hope than a reality. Would have been nice - but never happened in real life.

Wreckless is, and always has been, an imbecile.

End hijack.


^ you last two posters didn't follow the rules. I Specifically asked you not to comment on someones post unless you had laid out your thoughts first. Or at least in the same post. So while you may think his ideas make him an imbicile, your lack of following simple and easy rules make you stupid or assholes or both. Please edit your posts to include your positions so I may edit this post into I love waffles and we can get this thread back on track.



I think I've made 0 posts here in the years I've read TNation so I'm a bit of a lurker. I've only recently even had an account.


firstly, the closest description of my political leaning is "Ron Paul Libertarian". It's sad that there are branches of Libertarianism that routinely breaks Libertarian ideals but, they exist--like the Libertarian Party.

The basic principle that I stand on is that of voluntary cooperation amongst individuals and a respect for private property.


There should be no INCOME TAX. An income tax does not respect private property as it assumes the government owns your money and it is at their discretion to let you keep 99% or 1%. This is obviously absurd. Our labor, our time, our money.


Rights are given by God, Nature, or your higher entity of choice--Science if you're that person. They do not come from government. We do not have rights because of what government we were born into. All individuals have the same set of rights whether in the United States or Soviet Russia. An evil force denying any such right is an evil that should be eradicated. It is not the natural state of affairs.


I'm not sure what these two refer to so I'm going to assume a similarity. As an INCOME TAX is ass, our wealth is our own to do as we please. We can spend like drunken sailors of save like paranoid doomsayers. Whatever we choose is up to us. We can give it away or keep it all. We are under no obligation to share.


Worship whatever God/gods/animal/Totem Pole/etc you want. You just can't force anyone to worship your religion of choice.


Decentralized system. It should be up to local towns and cities to make the laws that work for them. Central control fails all the time and it is tyrannical.

and End the Fed. sound money is important.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Very good post. I applaud you sir.


Not to be lazy but a majority of these thoughts I am down with. I don't agree that simply raising tariffs is that easy of an answer or achieves the desired effect.
To what he wrote I would add:

Don't give a shit about gays getting married. Let's actually live the Bill of Rights for once in this nation's history and truly let all men be created equal. May not agree with the lifestyle personally but it should be your right to do what you want.

On that token, legalize all drugs. War on drugs= massive failure and always will be.

No welfare state, if you do want welfare then if I pay for it (via taxes) I get to determine what you eat and do (yes you will work).

Income tax was a shady voting situation and should be repealed, period. I will give the government my money via investments, bonds, etc.


You didn't actually think you could get PWI posters to like reead and comprehend the directions did you?


I believe the role of government is to provide whatever funding, guidance, and enforcement is necessary to ensure the inalienable rights of its citizens, and not an ounce more.


Settle down. My point was that Wreckless himself didn't abide by your "Ok, instead of the ad nauseum arguments about this little aspect of a topic or that, Give me a paragraph or two, or ten if you need it. Give me your basic argument of the major ideas you support and why." Instead of explaining a philosophy, he decided to take an (errant) potshot at the loathed Bush.

That said, my first rule of politics and society looks a lot like the "seventh generation" principle attributed to the Great Law of the Iroquois: "In every deliberation, we must consider the impact on the seventh generation... even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine." "What about the seventh generation? Where are you taking them? What will they have?"

Put this principle to work to protect in the context of the ancient rights, liberties and duties we've inherited from Western civilization for subsequent generations. Anything else - including organizing our society around a theme of instant gratification and narcisstic self-worship - is nothing short of a form of treason.


I'm right and you're wrong. If you disagree with me it's because you're a stupid, ignorant racist. I'm not going to listen to you or take your point of view into account at all. I will simply dismiss you as a stupid, ignorant racist. I don't need facts to prove my point, I can make shit up as I go along. If you don't agree, it's because you're a stupid, ignorant racist.

I'm better than you and the fact that you don't know it means you are a stupid, ignorant racist.


Oh god not the Clinton balanced the budget lie again. You do not know what you are talking about. Clinton's economic policy never came close to creating a surplus nor a balanced budget. All they did was change accounting rules so that the government could count the social security payroll tax as income. But it is not income that can be spent, it is supposed to be a trust fund, a trust fund that eventually gives the money back to the people it was taken from.

It was Clinton whose campaign took money from the Chinese, then returned the favor by granting them permanent most favored nation trading status. That move has decimated America's manufacturing base and turned the US into a debtor nation.


Thanks for clarifying and I agree his post was on the "very" weak side. I'm not saying anything he wrote is good or bad policy wise, but he did go with barely more than a sentance and it was on one very flimsy point at best. It doesn't give me a clear undersatanding of his point of view other than he loves Clinton and hates Bush. And thank you for participating.




Libs need to learn that government does not create wealth, it steals it. California has expanded it's state government by 40% since Schwarzen-failure took office. We have had huge state deficits year after year, with failed budgets, expanded entitlement programs, increased government workforce, increased taxes and regulation, leading to the end result of...

Worst business climate in the country, highest taxes in the country, worst schools in the country, 35% of all the welfare in the country, all because of the most Liberal state legislature in the country.

And people think this couldn't happen on a larger scale with the entire country?