Girls with Guns... and Sometimes Spears

Off Topic
21

Some good responses so far on both sides. I’ve been reading them but my hands are full with baby right now so I’m limited to type much until dad gets home but I’m following along.

To gregron – I’m certain I could put down someone with 17 rounds although I’ve never been in that position before. When shooting at a target, my groupings are very good and I’m consistent. It’s just that that is a stationary target in a well-lit surrounding when I am in a calm state and my children aren’t present. A quick change in variables and I would hope for the best and defend my family.

22

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
In response to batman’s post, one thing jumps out at me right away and that’s firing through the door. How do SWAT teams determine it’s safe to do so? In other words, what if someone else (other than your intruder) is on the other side of the door?

Like another family member, neighbor or emergency help? I’m seeing merit to this but I also think it may cause one (especially female) to hesitate and become a vitcim. I really don’t know and am asking as this is a subject that has been on my mind quite a bit in recent months.[/quote]

Can not speak for any swat team members but through all my training, instruction and just plain life knowledge I have never been told to shoot thru a door. You take a chance of wasting limited ammo and also missing your target. Now I’m only talking from a defensive position.

Maybe some other experts have other instructions to share.[/quote]

You have a military background or something similar, no? You always appear knowledgeable when topics like this come up and I’m certain I’ve read something to that effect before.

[/quote]

20+ retired old trying to stay Iron dwarf sexy these days.

But as they said before if you know family or loved ones are not behind that door then you have the option. But blasting away?.. Maybe not. I’m on the fence with warning shots but maybe they have a place. I’ve seen people shoot scared or with elevated heart rates and it’s easy to lose count of what you have. If the people on the other side are also armed and more than one guy. Well these are the questions

Missed ammo is important too. My mags are 17 rounds bu still, you never know. [/quote]

20+ years? Did you serve when you were 12 or something? lol

I am with you on the warning shots. I would shoot only at whomever it was and there would be no warning. Why am I going to warn you when you broke into my house and are chasing me and my family? No way. That is how women get themselves into bad positions in these situations - they are afraid to hurt someone even if it’s evident that the other persons intention was to cause harm to you.

23

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
My gun…

Sorry csulli but that would just be weird, wouldn’t it? lol[/quote]

Ahhh the PX4 Storm. I have one myself. It’s a very good weapon. [/quote]

It has a very good reputation. At first, it felt very awkward in my hand but not so much now. With some practice, I think I’ll be very efficient with it.

24

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Some good responses so far on both sides. I’ve been reading them but my hands are full with baby right now so I’m limited to type much until dad gets home but I’m following along.

To gregron – I’m certain I could put down someone with 17 rounds although I’ve never been in that position before. When shooting at a target, my groupings are very good and I’m consistent. It’s just that that is a stationary target in a well-lit surrounding when I am in a calm state and my children aren’t present. A quick change in variables and I would hope for the best and defend my family.[/quote]

I agree with you. Things definitely change when you’re in a stressful situation but like they say, practice makes perfect.

25

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Some good responses so far on both sides. I’ve been reading them but my hands are full with baby right now so I’m limited to type much until dad gets home but I’m following along.

To gregron – I’m certain I could put down someone with 17 rounds although I’ve never been in that position before. When shooting at a target, my groupings are very good and I’m consistent. It’s just that that is a stationary target in a well-lit surrounding when I am in a calm state and my children aren’t present. A quick change in variables and I would hope for the best and defend my family.[/quote]

I agree with you. Things definitely change when you’re in a stressful situation but like they say, practice makes perfect.[/quote]

TRUTH!

Because Hesitation Kills.

Practice, practice, practice

26

[quote]csulli wrote:
Was hoping for pics of scantily clad babes posing with guns and other weapons.

:([/quote]

I too was hoping that’s what this thread was. I shall resume my business elsewhere.

27

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

Melinda Herman told police she started shooting the man when he opened the door to the crawl space. The man pleaded with her to stop, but she kept firing until she had emptied her rounds, she told police. She then fled to a neighbor’s house with her children.

[/quote]

It was this part here that I had the most trouble with.

He pleaded with her to stop but she kept firing.

Was it wise on her part to reveal that detail? Could a jury turn against her on the grounds he was now the victim?

My concern is that a man against a woman; he can try to fool her by saying things to appeal to her compassion and then subdue her. So I would say she was justified to keep shooting at him because the threat remained even thought he “pleaded with her”. But how does this play out legally?

If he had put his hands up and said don’t shot I will leave, does anyone know if she was legally supposed to stop and allow him to scape, or whether she is still legally in the right to shot to kill?

I know that if his back is turned to you and he is running out of the house you are not legally allowed to shoot him anymore.

28

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

Melinda Herman told police she started shooting the man when he opened the door to the crawl space. The man pleaded with her to stop, but she kept firing until she had emptied her rounds, she told police. She then fled to a neighbor’s house with her children.

[/quote]

It was this part here that I had the most trouble with.

He pleaded with her to stop but she kept firing.

Was it wise on her part to reveal that detail? Could a jury turn against her on the grounds he was now the victim?

My concern is that a man against a woman; he can try to fool her by saying things to appeal to her compassion and then subdue her. So I would say she was justified to keep shooting at him because the threat remained even thought he “pleaded with her”. But how does this play out legally?

If he had put his hands up and said don’t shot I will leave, does anyone know if she was legally supposed to stop and allow him to scape, or whether she is still legally in the right to shot to kill?

I know that if his back is turned to you and he is running out of the house you are not legally allowed to shoot him anymore.

[/quote]

Not sure how wise it was for her to mention that part also. I remember listening to old cops talking about how back in the day before they could claim a good shoot was to not only see the weapon being pulled but to also see ther person moving his arm into a position to shoot (hahahaha, BULL SHITT). once it was identified as stupid they dropped that part and just told police the person only needed to show an intent. Pulling a gun on a cop in many cases is enough to get your ass shot.

Many states have similar laws. Some say you must try to flee even in your own home if someone comes in KNOWING your home. Other states with sense say if you show an intent (breaking into a home with people inside) that is enough to defend yourself.

Now if she has a good lawyer he could say " with the kid screaming and her heart pounding how could she truly know what was being said. Only knowing this fools original intent was to do harm of some kind. And who is to say how many seconds it took for her to empty that weapon?

29

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I had to include batman730’s post from that thread also as he always contributes meaningful and insightful thoughts.

When I read Batman’s post yesterday I was instinctively saying no no to shooting through the door.

The problems I have with that are:

I need to see the target.
Jackie I have a question for you on that:

What if the intruder was a 140lb teenage boy, unarmed, who made a mistake in thinking the house was empty.
You look at him and he is nervous, counter-phobic, or ready to run not to attack.
Would that affect your decision to shoot?
Would you try to get him to leave the house at gun point to spare his life?

How likely in this country is for the intruder to be a teenager?

The shooting through the door scenario also makes me a prisoner in a confined space in an unknown situation and I am again abiding in a victim mentality waiting to be rescued by the police whenever they get there.

Overall, the shooting through the door just did not seem wise to me.

By the way, batman, the comments are welcome and I hope we all get to explore the psychology of shooting for women, specially if having children.

If I saw my target was an insecure teenage boy I admit a part of me might feel “he could be my child”.
Maybe not.

Then if he is 6"0 tall and I feel overpowered not so much.

30

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
My gun…

Sorry csulli but that would just be weird, wouldn’t it? lol[/quote]

Quite! :slight_smile:

Your gun is similar in style to the HK ( I appreciate you more for not getting it in marshmallow pink, not that there is anything wrong with that ).

Did you prefer with the safety and have you shot double action?

I did not like the idea of a safety being in the trigger so I opted for the HK with the safety also.

Did you say 17 rounds? A lot of bullets!

The HK is 13. They are 40 S&W.

It was shipped yesterday. Now seeing your gun I am excited to receive mine and start practicing.

Did you have any issues with the recoil and/or the muzzle flip?

I have skinny wrists and am curious to see how it is going to affect my performance.

31

[quote]four60 wrote:

Many states have similar laws. Some say you must try to flee even in your own home if someone comes in KNOWING your home. Other states with sense say if you show an intent (breaking into a home with people inside) that is enough to defend yourself. [/quote]

I am glad you mentioned this.
I am glad in Florida I do not have to flee from my own home.
I would find that very difficult because it encourages you to live like a victim.
One’s body and one’s home are very personal boundaries.
Every man?woman has a line that cannot be crossed without consent. [quote]

Now if she has a good lawyer he could say " with the kid screaming and her heart pounding how could she truly know what was being said. Only knowing this fools original intent was to do harm of some kind. And who is to say how many seconds it took for her to empty that weapon?[/quote]

I would say that in the same way, a positive scenario between a man and a woman in which man will say anything to get the lady, we women know that sometimes men are just trying to get us to surrender.
And in this negative scenario he could have been playing her, because he knew by “pleading” he was going to appeal to her female “I felt sorry for him” weakness, and could have easily subdued her, raped her and killed her with her own gun.

I would absolutely maintain, if I were her, that in spite of what he was saying, she still felt threatened for her life and feared he would attack her and she kept shooting until she was able to be away from him enough to flee.

Problem with that is that forensics can tell how far apart she was from him, the angle each bullet traveled through his body and whether she shot from his back ( meaning he would be pleading to stop and leaving the house ahead of her - implicating her for attempted murder ).

If he was running for the door and she kept shotting I think she could end up being charged.

32

If you can fire once, you can empty the pistol, and should.

Pistols are really, really, weak weapons.

Clink on this link for an article by the FBI on why pistols suck compared to a rifle.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=FBI+wounding+factors&FORM=IE8SRC

In Afganistan, we would rotate who was point going into a house or a cave. Point always got the shotgun to do the door breach (in addition to the M4 or whatever that went on your back).

After I left, they got this super-cool combo-shotgun/M4.

33

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
If you can fire once, you can empty the pistol, and should.

[/quote]

Even if he is running and has gone past towards the door and has his back to you?

34

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
If you can fire once, you can empty the pistol, and should.

[/quote]

Even if he is running and has gone past towards the door and has his back to you?[/quote]

Depends on the state, but if you are in the south, yeah.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

35

This may be useful:

36

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
Was hoping for pics of scantily clad babes posing with guns and other weapons.

:([/quote]

I too was hoping that’s what this thread was. I shall resume my business elsewhere.[/quote]

srsly - how bout some pics of the OP naked holding her weapon? that would spice up this thread.

37

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
In response to batman’s post, one thing jumps out at me right away and that’s firing through the door. How do SWAT teams determine it’s safe to do so? In other words, what if someone else (other than your intruder) is on the other side of the door?

Like another family member, neighbor or emergency help? I’m seeing merit to this but I also think it may cause one (especially female) to hesitate and become a vitcim. I really don’t know and am asking as this is a subject that has been on my mind quite a bit in recent months.[/quote]

SWAT member here (runs in the family dad was SWAT too) – we rarely if ever shoot through doors. That’s some BS you see on TV and in action films.

38

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

Melinda Herman told police she started shooting the man when he opened the door to the crawl space. The man pleaded with her to stop, but she kept firing until she had emptied her rounds, she told police. She then fled to a neighbor’s house with her children.

[/quote]

It was this part here that I had the most trouble with.

He pleaded with her to stop but she kept firing.

Was it wise on her part to reveal that detail? Could a jury turn against her on the grounds he was now the victim?

My concern is that a man against a woman; he can try to fool her by saying things to appeal to her compassion and then subdue her. So I would say she was justified to keep shooting at him because the threat remained even thought he “pleaded with her”. But how does this play out legally?

If he had put his hands up and said don’t shot I will leave, does anyone know if she was legally supposed to stop and allow him to scape, or whether she is still legally in the right to shot to kill?

I know that if his back is turned to you and he is running out of the house you are not legally allowed to shoot him anymore.
[/quote]

Even in gun-hating Canada I don’t think that would matter. A man in your home is a threat and you must end the threat. Probably not wise to mention it but if it’s the truth it’s the truth I suppose.

39

Alright, I am regretting the shoot through the door comment. I fear I may have run my mouth without fully engaging my brain. However my thought process was this: my wife and daughter are barricaded in a locked room behind the bed and an intruder tries to open the door. My wife loudly announces “I have a gun and I’ll shoot you if you come in here”. She has relinquished the element of surprise and given away her location, but this should dissuade a burglar who is not looking for a confrontation, which is the most likely scenario. Instead of leaving, the guy persists to try to kick down the door. I can see a benefit (if she is certain of her backdrop) to her firing 2-3 through the door where a person is likely to be, as opposed to waiting until the door gives way and she finds that, shit, she forgot to rack a round because she was in such a panic to get the kids, or shit, she has a malfunction, or shit, there’s more than one bad guy, or shit, she hits the guy but it doesn’t stop him, or whatever else goes wrong in a close quarter gun fight. This is not optimal, of course, and I would feel better if she could see her target and surroundings and had sight picture (which is itself unlikely under stress) and visual confirmation of the threat etc, but I also feel good about her maintaining control of the space and IMO, the intact or semi-intact door helps her to do that.

I also think it’s likely that shots being fired will cause the bad guy to get out of Dodge even if they miss, although I would prefer that they hit. Furthermore, I am alright with her assuming that someone who is trying to kick down her bedroom door after she has announced herself is determined to do her harm to do her poses a credible threat to both her and or daughter. There are potential legal problems here, I realize.

I’m not saying I’m right, I was just explaining my thinking. Like I said, I kinda wish I’d kept my mouth shut. If I was talking out my arse (which is highly likely), I apologize.

40

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

Many states have similar laws. Some say you must try to flee even in your own home if someone comes in KNOWING your home. Other states with sense say if you show an intent (breaking into a home with people inside) that is enough to defend yourself. [/quote]

I am glad you mentioned this.
I am glad in Florida I do not have to flee from my own home.
I would find that very difficult because it encourages you to live like a victim.
One’s body and one’s home are very personal boundaries.
Every man?woman has a line that cannot be crossed without consent. [quote]

Now if she has a good lawyer he could say " with the kid screaming and her heart pounding how could she truly know what was being said. Only knowing this fools original intent was to do harm of some kind. And who is to say how many seconds it took for her to empty that weapon?[/quote]

I would say that in the same way, a positive scenario between a man and a woman in which man will say anything to get the lady, we women know that sometimes men are just trying to get us to surrender.
And in this negative scenario he could have been playing her, because he knew by “pleading” he was going to appeal to her female “I felt sorry for him” weakness, and could have easily subdued her, raped her and killed her with her own gun.

I would absolutely maintain, if I were her, that in spite of what he was saying, she still felt threatened for her life and feared he would attack her and she kept shooting until she was able to be away from him enough to flee.

Problem with that is that forensics can tell how far apart she was from him, the angle each bullet traveled through his body and whether she shot from his back ( meaning he would be pleading to stop and leaving the house ahead of her - implicating her for attempted murder ).

If he was running for the door and she kept shotting I think she could end up being charged.
[/quote]

In Florida, you have Stand Your Ground. In Wisconsin, we have Castle Doctrine (thank you, Scott Walker!). Someone correct me I am wrong but we both have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force. In WI, you have to be in danger physically (or someone else in the house or business) but you cannot use the doctrine to protect property. I’m not entirely certain if I would be able to use this defense should a person try to run for the door after I have fired. I would think not but I’ll research that. Have you discovered your rights regarding that in Florida yet?

You bring up such a good and relevant point about victim mentality. Who wants to live that way? We, as women, must learn how to be responsible for our own safety because our husbands might not be there and, more often than not, police are investigating what has already happened as opposed to preventing the occurrence.

Would you have kept firing at a man that broke into your home and then begged you to stop shooting him? I would given the circumstances in that link that you posted. If he had tracked her down in the home to that point, he isn’t robbing her. It would be safe to assume he would rape or kill her and/or her children. I’d have to ignore my womanly, compassionate side. If forensics determined that I had used excessive force, so be it, my family is safe so it was worth it. I mean, who is the victim here?

WI also has laws to prevent an intruder from suing you for things like medical bills should they survive. Who has the nerve to do that? Is Florida the same?