[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Ever know anyone with Acute Schizophrenia ?[/quote]
Ever known a sexual psychopath? Someone like Ted Bundy for instance. Should tax payers have funded Bundy’s incarceration costs and paid for a nice psychologist/psychiatrist to have chats with him about his feelings? Or were we right to have put him down like a mad dog(i.e. in a humane manner as opposed to the way in which he tortured his victims to death)?
If someone is convicted of MURDERING another human being/s(bar extenuating/mitigating circumstances) and that conviction is upheld several times upon tax payer funded appeals, that person should be snuffed. Whether some psychiatrist says they’re nuts or not is neither here nor there.[/quote]
Are you really going to try to compare a sociopath and a schizophrenic?
[/quote]
In terms of murdering people because they’re mad yes. If a guy with depression or bi-polar disorder murders someone same deal.[/quote]
Not really. Schizophrenics see things that aren’t there, hear things that don’t exist and truly believe a different reality. Depression or bi-polar causes none of these. Dangerous schizophrenics certainly need to be kept out of society for the safety of others, but usually when they commit a crime, they do not understand what they did or how it was wrong.
I do not get it of courses he is nuts , so what , we can not trust people like this , I say we have a trial to determine if he did it, If he did we should exterminate him , not in a punitive fashion , In a cheap efficient fashion.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Ever know anyone with Acute Schizophrenia ?[/quote]
I had an Uncle w/paranoid schizophrenia. Vietman vet.
So what? Are you actually going to defend his actions?[/quote]
No, his actions are not justifiable. I know little about the Gifford case, but I do know something about Schizophrenia. Their reality is entirely different from ours. It is entirely possible that a schizophrenic believes a person is a demon or an alien or God knows what else, and by killing them they are actually not only morally justified, but may me saving the world. That is what the legally insane plea is intended for.[/quote]
I still don’t understand how them not knowing it was wrong should lessen the punishment. If they don’t know that what they did was wrong they would have an increased chance of doing it again. Oh no! My new neighbor is a demon too!
I’m just saying in general for discussion purposes, not accusing you of standing on either side of this :)[/quote]
!?!
!!! ?
??!!??
Dude, what would you consider the just punishment for someone who gets rid of a demon?[/quote]
If they get rid of a demon then they deserve a parade. Hold on in this room as we go get the car to drive you through the throngs of adoring fans sir. Door shuts, start the sleep gas.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do not get it of courses he is nuts , so what , we can not trust people like this , I say we have a trial to determine if he did it, If he did we should exterminate him , not in a punitive fashion , In a cheap efficient fashion.[/quote]
Would you exterminate someone who kills another because they believe their own life is in imminent danger?
Not really. Schizophrenics see things that aren’t there, hear things that don’t exist and truly believe a different reality. Depression or bi-polar causes none of these. Dangerous schizophrenics certainly need to be kept out of society for the safety of others, but usually when they commit a crime, they do not understand what they did or how it was wrong.[/quote]
I don’t agree. Whilst schizophrenics suffer persecution complexes, delusions and hallucinations most murders you hear about committed by schizophrenics have elements to them that suggest they are morally responsible despite their illness. Take Jared Loughner for instance: So he thought Giffords was a monster or something? Why did he shoot half a dozen innocent bystanders too? Why is he smiling like a naughty child who knows he’s been naughty in his mug shot?
Not really. Schizophrenics see things that aren’t there, hear things that don’t exist and truly believe a different reality. Depression or bi-polar causes none of these. Dangerous schizophrenics certainly need to be kept out of society for the safety of others, but usually when they commit a crime, they do not understand what they did or how it was wrong.[/quote]
I don’t agree. Whilst schizophrenics suffer persecution complexes, delusions and hallucinations most murders you hear about committed by schizophrenics have elements to them that suggest they are morally responsible despite their illness. Take Jared Loughner for instance: So he thought Giffords was a monster or something? Why did he shoot half a dozen innocent bystanders too? Why is he smiling like a naughty child who knows he’s been naughty in his mug shot?[/quote]
Oh well, if he looks funny in his mugshot, then by all means. No trail even needed.
Yes, every case needs to be evaluated on it’s own merits, but if someone is even unable to recognize his victims as human, then I’d think that needs to be considered in the evaluation.
Not really. Schizophrenics see things that aren’t there, hear things that don’t exist and truly believe a different reality. Depression or bi-polar causes none of these. Dangerous schizophrenics certainly need to be kept out of society for the safety of others, but usually when they commit a crime, they do not understand what they did or how it was wrong.[/quote]
I don’t agree. Whilst schizophrenics suffer persecution complexes, delusions and hallucinations most murders you hear about committed by schizophrenics have elements to them that suggest they are morally responsible despite their illness. Take Jared Loughner for instance: So he thought Giffords was a monster or something? Why did he shoot half a dozen innocent bystanders too? Why is he smiling like a naughty child who knows he’s been naughty in his mug shot?[/quote]
Oh well, if he looks funny in his mugshot, then by all means. No trail even needed.
Yes, every case needs to be evaluated on it’s own merits, but if someone is even unable to recognize his victims as human, then I’d think that needs to be considered in the evaluation.
[/quote]
If someone can’t tell that their victim is human then what hope is there for rehab? If they will never be rehabbed then why should we pay to have them live out long lives?
Not really. Schizophrenics see things that aren’t there, hear things that don’t exist and truly believe a different reality. Depression or bi-polar causes none of these. Dangerous schizophrenics certainly need to be kept out of society for the safety of others, but usually when they commit a crime, they do not understand what they did or how it was wrong.[/quote]
I don’t agree. Whilst schizophrenics suffer persecution complexes, delusions and hallucinations most murders you hear about committed by schizophrenics have elements to them that suggest they are morally responsible despite their illness. Take Jared Loughner for instance: So he thought Giffords was a monster or something? Why did he shoot half a dozen innocent bystanders too? Why is he smiling like a naughty child who knows he’s been naughty in his mug shot?[/quote]
Oh well, if he looks funny in his mugshot, then by all means. No trail even needed.
Yes, every case needs to be evaluated on it’s own merits, but if someone is even unable to recognize his victims as human, then I’d think that needs to be considered in the evaluation.
[/quote]
If someone can’t tell that their victim is human then what hope is there for rehab? If they will never be rehabbed then why should we pay to have them live out long lives?
[/quote]
No, they will never be rehab’ed, there is no cure for schizophrenia. It can be managed to the point they can be marginally functional and productive. With a history of violence it is unlikely they would ever be permitted back into society (and probably should not be). So the moral question becomes to we put them down like a dog or house them in some type of prison. I think the comparison with other competent murders who have life sentences needs to be made.
Not really. Schizophrenics see things that aren’t there, hear things that don’t exist and truly believe a different reality. Depression or bi-polar causes none of these. Dangerous schizophrenics certainly need to be kept out of society for the safety of others, but usually when they commit a crime, they do not understand what they did or how it was wrong.[/quote]
I don’t agree. Whilst schizophrenics suffer persecution complexes, delusions and hallucinations most murders you hear about committed by schizophrenics have elements to them that suggest they are morally responsible despite their illness. Take Jared Loughner for instance: So he thought Giffords was a monster or something? Why did he shoot half a dozen innocent bystanders too? Why is he smiling like a naughty child who knows he’s been naughty in his mug shot?[/quote]
Oh well, if he looks funny in his mugshot, then by all means. No trail even needed.
Yes, every case needs to be evaluated on it’s own merits, but if someone is even unable to recognize his victims as human, then I’d think that needs to be considered in the evaluation.
[/quote]
If someone can’t tell that their victim is human then what hope is there for rehab? If they will never be rehabbed then why should we pay to have them live out long lives?
[/quote]
No, they will never be rehab’ed, there is no cure for schizophrenia. It can be managed to the point they can be marginally functional and productive. With a history of violence it is unlikely they would ever be permitted back into society (and probably should not be). So the moral question becomes to we put them down like a dog or house them in some type of prison. I think the comparison with other competent murders who have life sentences needs to be made.[/quote]
I can agree with that comparison. If you would lock a sane person up for life for that crime, the same punishment should be warranted if they are insane. Good point.
With a history of violence it is unlikely they would ever be permitted back into society (and probably should not be).
[/quote]
Actually the exact opposite is true. They put them on medication, claim they are fit to be realesed, release them, they stop taking their medication and they kill someone. What makes the problem worse is they don’t have enough beds for them so they’re under pressure all the time to release them.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do not get it of courses he is nuts , so what , we can not trust people like this , I say we have a trial to determine if he did it, If he did we should exterminate him , not in a punitive fashion , In a cheap efficient fashion.[/quote]
Would you exterminate someone who kills another because they believe their own life is in imminent danger?[/quote]
With a history of violence it is unlikely they would ever be permitted back into society (and probably should not be).
[/quote]
Actually the exact opposite is true. They put them on medication, claim they are fit to be realesed, release them, they stop taking their medication and they kill someone. What makes the problem worse is they don’t have enough beds for them so they’re under pressure all the time to release them.[/quote]
Any evidence to support that? My experience has been that they are routinely released until they kill someone, then they are locked up for the remainder of their lives. If we could figure out a way to hold them before that it may save so some lives.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do not get it of courses he is nuts , so what , we can not trust people like this , I say we have a trial to determine if he did it, If he did we should exterminate him , not in a punitive fashion , In a cheap efficient fashion.[/quote]
Would you exterminate someone who kills another because they believe their own life is in imminent danger?[/quote]
certainly NO
[/quote]
Then you wouldn’t exterminate them for taking a life even if they felt their life was in danger from a demon or dragon or space alien or something else that wasn’t real?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do not get it of courses he is nuts , so what , we can not trust people like this , I say we have a trial to determine if he did it, If he did we should exterminate him , not in a punitive fashion , In a cheap efficient fashion.[/quote]
Would you exterminate someone who kills another because they believe their own life is in imminent danger?[/quote]
certainly NO
[/quote]
Then you wouldn’t exterminate them for taking a life even if they felt their life was in danger from a demon or dragon or space alien or something else that wasn’t real?[/quote]
Yes the difference is reality , I am not talking about being punitive , we can not trust people like this
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do not get it of courses he is nuts , so what , we can not trust people like this , I say we have a trial to determine if he did it, If he did we should exterminate him , not in a punitive fashion , In a cheap efficient fashion.[/quote]
Would you exterminate someone who kills another because they believe their own life is in imminent danger?[/quote]
certainly NO
[/quote]
Then you wouldn’t exterminate them for taking a life even if they felt their life was in danger from a demon or dragon or space alien or something else that wasn’t real?[/quote]
Yes the difference is reality , I am not talking about being punitive , we can not trust people like this [/quote]
With a history of violence it is unlikely they would ever be permitted back into society (and probably should not be).
[/quote]
Actually the exact opposite is true. They put them on medication, claim they are fit to be realesed, release them, they stop taking their medication and they kill someone. What makes the problem worse is they don’t have enough beds for them so they’re under pressure all the time to release them.[/quote]
Any evidence to support that? My experience has been that they are routinely released until they kill someone, then they are locked up for the remainder of their lives. If we could figure out a way to hold them before that it may save so some lives. [/quote]
This is a tough issue. Of course the gut response is to wish the guy dead–the nature of the crime, the mugshot…it elicits a visceral desire for retribution.
But Reddog has a very good point about living in an alternate reality. Lines are blurred. Obviously it isn’t an argument to have Loughner released. Whether it is in a cell or six feet in the ground, he should spend the rest of all time in a secluded hole.
A caveat: I’m not saying I necessarily believe this is the case in this particular instance. I don’t know much of anything about psychological disorders, and I believe fully that people have tricked their way out of the death penalty via the psychological incompetence route. But a spade is a spade, and a scumbag who guns someone down for the change in their pocket deserves to be treated differently than someone who is truly and honestly fucked in the head.
With a history of violence it is unlikely they would ever be permitted back into society (and probably should not be).
[/quote]
Actually the exact opposite is true. They put them on medication, claim they are fit to be realesed, release them, they stop taking their medication and they kill someone. What makes the problem worse is they don’t have enough beds for them so they’re under pressure all the time to release them.[/quote]
Any evidence to support that? My experience has been that they are routinely released until they kill someone, then they are locked up for the remainder of their lives. If we could figure out a way to hold them before that it may save so some lives. [/quote]
[quote]smh23 wrote:
This is a tough issue. Of course the gut response is to wish the guy dead–the nature of the crime, the mugshot…it elicits a visceral desire for retribution.
But Reddog has a very good point about living in an alternate reality. Lines are blurred. Obviously it isn’t an argument to have Loughner released. Whether it is in a cell or six feet in the ground, he should spend the rest of all time in a secluded hole.
A caveat: I’m not saying I necessarily believe this is the case in this particular instance. I don’t know much of anything about psychological disorders, and I believe fully that people have tricked their way out of the death penalty via the psychological incompetence route. But a spade is a spade, and a scumbag who guns someone down for the change in their pocket deserves to be treated differently than someone who is truly and honestly fucked in the head.[/quote]
