Getting It Right (Beginner Ramble/Questions)

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Nothing wrong with potatoes, especially sweet.

Rice depends on your particular physiology. Some handle it just fine, others get fat in a hurry. If you eat beans and rice, eat them together. Rice has an amino that the beans are missing to make a whole protein (that the body can use as a building block instead of burning as energy), and the fiber in the beans helps the rice digest slower.

Protein, Protein, Protein! And get plenty of good fats in there as well. You need all kinds of fat, too, not just mono-unsat. Your body uses different kinds of fat for all kinds of functions, so leaving anything out is a mistake.

If you’re trying to get STRONGER, you need to make sure you take in enough carbs. Fat just doesn’t burn fast enough, and your body will have to break down proteins and burn them as BCAA’s to supply enough quick energy for your lifting sessions if you don’t eat enough carbs (how’s that for a run-on sentence). Keep the carbs limited to breakfast and before and after training as much as possible.

But then, sometimes you just gotta gain WEIGHT. Just gain raw WEIGHT and worry about refining it later. That’s my recommendation to skinny newbs. I’m not talking about binging on ho-ho’s and ice cream, but don’t be scared of carbs and fat if you’re skinny. And don’t be scared to gain some fat and lose your abs, either. I was caught in that trap for a very long time and got nowhere. I started listening to the guys here and just started eating to gain a pound a week, and immediately started getting stronger and bigger. Three years later… I’m 45lbs heavier and twice as strong, and with less fat than I had before. But I never would have gotten here without that initial weight gain. [/quote]

I like you, you make less problems for me :smiley:

I’ve got no (vanity) problems with gaining weight. (Unless I have to buy new trousers.)
My goal is strength, not aesthetics.

I am, however, a champion crapper, at least I assume that’s why I have trouble gaining weight, there may be a more scientific reason.

I’ve gained about 9lbs in the last eight months of cramming as much beans, rice, and more beans as I can, and I’m never shy around cake, biscuits, chocolate, and suchlike.

I’m meandering through the massive article archive here, but still have not quite been able to come up with anything that fills me with confidence.

Another Q:

My workout sessions (usually) fall between breakfast and lunch, you touched on eating carbs before or just after workout, any other guidelines on what times are best for certain foods?

Should I smash lunch as soon as I leave the gym, or wait a period?
Should I be working out just after breakfast?

22

Nice post jay.

I didn’t know about the rice and beans combo although it is a common combination in many parts of the world.

I was thinking back to my student nurse and newly qualified days when i really was living on a BOA (bones of arse) diet !, then i ate lots of beans–and farted a lot as well !!. On useful discovery was making up big pans of chilli with a tomato/onion base (very cheap) adding in lots of either tinned or dry beans (very cheap) and adding smaller amounts of cheap meat cuts and cooking the whole lot slowly.

Adding in more eggs sounds good, lots of ways of using them in a diet, veg generally is one of the cheapest food options around–personal favourite is to have them roasted (great flavour) again another discovery was roasting off a load of mediterranean veg like peppers onion aubergine etc and having that with some stir through sauce and a small amount of pasta (penne works well).

I like what jay is saying about the timing of carb eating as well–getting fuelled up will oftentimes give you a stronger workout and carbs after a workout (fast carbs) can slam the door on catabolism so that you don’t start chewing on your own muscles.
Where the high carb is best avoided is just before sleep when the only thing your body can do is store it as fat.

While i think about it though i am coming from the perspective of trying to cut down on body fat --your needs could well be different.

If you are of the mindset that likes to work these things out in detail it might be worth simply cruising the supermarket aisles, noting the cost of everything and working out where the best ‘bang for buck’ is–sort of cost benefit analysis applied to food buying.
Usually --watching out for good deals, buying cheaper meat cuts, buying basics like tuna in multi-packs etc is the way to keep costs down.

Really can’t comment on the supplements re cost benefit as i don’t use them, i suspect though that it would be a cheaper option to simply eat more ‘real’ food.

Keep it coming–most interesting beginner thread i have read by far.

23

[quote]big nurse wrote:
Nice post jay.

I didn’t know about the rice and beans combo although it is a common combination in many parts of the world.

I was thinking back to my student nurse and newly qualified days when i really was living on a BOA (bones of arse) diet !, then i ate lots of beans–and farted a lot as well !!. On useful discovery was making up big pans of chilli with a tomato/onion base (very cheap) adding in lots of either tinned or dry beans (very cheap) and adding smaller amounts of cheap meat cuts and cooking the whole lot slowly.

Adding in more eggs sounds good, lots of ways of using them in a diet, veg generally is one of the cheapest food options around–personal favourite is to have them roasted (great flavour) again another discovery was roasting off a load of mediterranean veg like peppers onion aubergine etc and having that with some stir through sauce and a small amount of pasta (penne works well).

I like what jay is saying about the timing of carb eating as well–getting fuelled up will oftentimes give you a stronger workout and carbs after a workout (fast carbs) can slam the door on catabolism so that you don’t start chewing on your own muscles.
Where the high carb is best avoided is just before sleep when the only thing your body can do is store it as fat.

While i think about it though i am coming from the perspective of trying to cut down on body fat --your needs could well be different.

If you are of the mindset that likes to work these things out in detail it might be worth simply cruising the supermarket aisles, noting the cost of everything and working out where the best ‘bang for buck’ is–sort of cost benefit analysis applied to food buying.
Usually --watching out for good deals, buying cheaper meat cuts, buying basics like tuna in multi-packs etc is the way to keep costs down.

Really can’t comment on the supplements re cost benefit as i don’t use them, i suspect though that it would be a cheaper option to simply eat more ‘real’ food.

Keep it coming–most interesting beginner thread i have read by far.[/quote]

As for your “student feed” that’s basically what my “risotto” is.
Brown rice, borlotti & red kidney beans, cooked with onion, herbs, & bacon, chicken, or (wait for it…) kangaroo. (I also do it with Pearl Barley instead of rice sometimes)

Obviously last week was bacon, and I get three or four food containers out of a batch.

Anyway, from what you’ve said, I’ll save my rice for around workouts, and try to get something meatier for dinner.

I’ll get some mixed nuts and fruit for breakfasts, and see how we go from there.

Should my diet on work days and rest days vary at all?

Unfortunately I can’t think of any unusually fascinating questions at the moment, maybe after another week I’ll need to know more.

Oh, where can I find out about the specific benefits of similar but varied exercises, the info panels of the sides of machines and whatever posters are hanging in the gym are a bit vague.

(For example) what is the difference between a shoulder press, a vertical chest press, and an incline chest press. They would seem to more or less use the same muscles?

24

Nothing wrong with roo, although we keep them in zoos over here-that answers a question i was going to ask ie where are you …so i would hazard a guess at Aus ??.

I was trying to remember other cheap and good basics that i used to eat…kedgeree is one if you like those flavours but once again modified with beans or lentils in the rice and where fish is the class protein.

Dan Johns basic diet rules seem ok ie, eat protein at every meal, eat fibre at every meal, eat 5 meals a day, don’t skip meals.

Mixed nuts and fruit are good, i have fruit including berries and walnuts regularly in my breakfast which (at work) is : cottage cheese, fruit (berries) nuts, some creme fraiche and small amount of honey. Dried fruit and nuts make an excellent snack

25

As for your weight gain (or lack thereof), and being a champion crapper, you may have some digestive problems that are preventing you from absorbing what you eat.

26

[quote]JimmyBeans wrote:
My workout sessions (usually) fall between breakfast and lunch, you touched on eating carbs before or just after workout, any other guidelines on what times are best for certain foods?

Should I smash lunch as soon as I leave the gym, or wait a period?
Should I be working out just after breakfast?
[/quote]
Slam a shake immediately after your workout, and have lunch about an hour later. Add some maltodextrin to your shake for some simple, fast carbs.

I hate lifting in the morning, but if it works for you, go for it. Just make sure you eat a good breakfast. Caffeine is your friend, and so are simple carbs.

27

nomch nomch nomch…slurrrp

Based on your scientifically proven advice, today’s lunch is a bag of mixed nuts and dried fruit, and a quart of cola. (it was a close call, the packaged nuts were stacked next to the Haribo section. Only my iron will kept me on course)

(interesting side note: Preservative 220, also known as Sulphur dioxide, and used in dried fruit, causes me to have a fascinating and occasionally socially-awkward rash.
It’s not going to stop me from eating it, but it’ll piss my doctor off >_< )

I tried to read the bulking reloaded article this morning. It was a bit much to handle, but I trust you, so I’ll keep reading it until I understand something.

Is it normal to fluctuate between workouts?

This morning’s session (sticking with Christian’s newbie “vertical push, vertical pull, horizontal push, horizontal pull” rules for upper body, seemed a bit lacklustre on my behalf.
I was moving 5-10lbs less than I was capable of previous session, and even with the lower load, was unable to complete as many reps. (up until now, every workout has been an improvement, I suspect more just because I was finding out what I could handle, not because I was getting stronger, it’s just the very beginning, after all)

Also, after a few experimental arm flaps, and self-pokery, I’ve come to the conclusion that my triceps are total piss, so I’ll add a component to the approved workout that I think I’ll call “Dips Ahoy!” which seems an adequate description of what I’ll be targeting. (This is within the guidelines of extra arm work once the basics have been covered, I don’t want anyone to think I am stepping outside the bounds of existing and provided wisdom)

Just found Christian’s “Nutrition for Newbies” ( Nutrition For Newbies )

So, reading that now. Might stop me from asking too many stupid questions.

Alright, it went over some stuff I’m sure I’ve been told before, but it is good to be reminded.

To “Keep it simple” because I am basically a very simple person.
Carb Breakfast, recovery lunch, protein with every feed.

According to Boss Chris (who, for no real reason other than that it says “newbie” in his articles, I’m willing to trust with all my strength training), Carbs might not be a huge problem for me, but he does say “Don’t mix high carbs and high fats in the same meal”
I’ll have to do some research to find out where these fats are hiding, so I can avoid them with my Carbs.

I’m trying to read up on all these various wonderful formulas and so on, and (just as with the articles on workouts or different diets) trying to decode what is targeted to Weight Loss, or Mass Gain, or Strength takes some work.

28

It is easy to get information overload on here !!.

The basic training and diet rules espoused by coach chris and the other coach chris ! ,are really sound. Once in a while it’s worth just going back to those beginners articles for the sheer amount of sound info that is there.

On the crap issue…it’s an in and out rule…what goes in either stays in as water, fat or muscle or gets shat out again !! your diet does have a lot of fibre in there with the beans so i would expect you to be dumping big loads.

Earlier you were asking about the differences between similar exercises, without being specific there are lots of variants on all the basic moves that hit or stimulate slightly diferent areas of a muscle group, once you have the basic exercise for that area sorted it’s quite fun once in a whiel to have a play with the others.
Big thing at the moment is to concentrate on the big compound moves that work the big muscle groups that stimulate the big gains.

Also…it’s normal to have weaker and stronger areas and better and worse workouts that even in 1 week. It’s also normal that some lifts may progress much faster than others–but stick with working everything to keep a balanced workout happening.

29

Why do machines even have weight numbers written on them.

I have a suspicion that if I try to copy the machine exercises with weights matching what the machine claims I’m capable, I’ll just end up looking like a bitch, or injuring myself.

Which is all the more incentive to start using weights.

Sooo…
I snuck in a few cheeky curls today and no one leapt of out of mirrors to arrest me.
I’ll try to use the weights for my vertical/horizontal press exercises from now on.

I’ll have to re-read beginner training and beginner nutrition a few times a week until I’ve juiced every last morsel of information and have a good grounding in the basics.

30

[quote]JimmyBeans wrote:
Why do machines even have weight numbers written on them.

[/quote]

Just to piss you off…

31

[quote]big nurse wrote:

[quote]JimmyBeans wrote:
Why do machines even have weight numbers written on them.

[/quote]

Just to piss you off…
[/quote]
It’s an evil plot to use your ego against you to keep you weak. If you can bench ‘300’ on the machine, but only 225 in real life, you’ll be tempted to use the machine to protect your ego. So you’ll never develop the ability to control big weight, and we all know control=power. In this way, they keep you powerless.

It’s all just part of the conspiracy, man.

32

[quote]JimmyBeans wrote:

Sooo…
I snuck in a few cheeky curls today and no one leapt of out of mirrors to arrest me.
I’ll try to use the weights for my vertical/horizontal press exercises from now on.

.[/quote]

As long as you didn’t do them in the squat rack that’s fine (see 'get a life thread–squat rack curls)

How about posting some workouts now that you have worked out that we don’t bite and are interested in progress ??

33

4x5-8 (Ie, I shoot for eight, but I’m at a load where I fail around 6-7)

The main part:

Cable Row
Lat Pulldown
Vertical Chest Press
Lateral raise
Leg Press
Leg curl

Extras:
seated tricep
Bicep curl
Pec Fly
Rear deltoid

I do a half-load set before each.

That is all with machines, so I’m planning to swap the “Vertical Chest Press” for bench press
and do military press sets as well.

and goblet squats.

34

Ok…good start.

Have a look at this format which will in the long term help you gauge progress.

1.Exercise (name)
2.Weight used
3.Number of sets
4.Number of repetitions.

Eg.
Lat pull down 80lb 4 x8.
etc.

Also for your own interest start recording (in your own journal) how it felt ie what is called a ‘perceived rating of effort’ shouldn’t be 100% …you will just burn out but working up in the 7/10 to 9/10 will be solid workouts.

35

I won’t bore you all with the details from my workout diary (it’s got butterflies & a pony on it)

but I will say using free weights for bench and shoulder press was fucking humbling.

With a proper concern for safety, I worked my way up from bare bar* to whatever I could handle, but the final weight was still about 1/3 less than on the machines.

*The gym attendant is a smoking hot lass, so let’s all have a minute silence for my pride that had to be put aside in order for me to establish my limitations.

36

Don’t stress about having to lift lighter with free weights, it’s completely different when you are having to control the path of movement as well.
When i started it was all i could do to get the bare bar overhead.

In fact a really good routine i would reccomend that you try out is Dan Johns warm up/work out with the bare barbell (oly bar) which is a complex ie do all the movements straight through without racking the bar.

Something like :
Deadlift movement 8 reps straight into -
Overhead press x8
Rear squat 8
Good morning 8
Bent over row 8
Finishing with a ‘floor to ceiling’ x8.

That is 48 movements straight through, do a couple of rounds of that to warm up and it’s like a circuit training session in it’s own right and emphasises learning the big compound moves that you will use later on.

37

I read up on some of Dan Johns’ articles last night, It was fascinating.
I was halfway to the hardware store with a shopping list for heavy chains, sandbags and truck tyres before I remember I already have an approved newbie workout to stick to.

Maybe I’ll try some of his stuff in the summertime.

Speaking of my “approved newbie workout”

With my “discretional” extra exercises (ie, curls, tri-extensions, rear delts, flyes, whatever)

am I better off picking one (ie curls) and doing it every workout until I do a whole new routine, or alternating so that various different muscles get some action?

I had another question I thought of at the gym, but shit me, I’ve forgotten now, so nevermind.

38

Ha–thought that coach Dan might have that effect !!.

On the discretionary stuff, really don’t have the experience to offer an opinion although my reading of the information is that it matters a lot less than the main lifts.
There do often seem to be better ways of engaging those muscle groups though eg doing chin ups rather than curls–biceps get used in both but the chin-up hits lots of others as well.
One Dan John saying i have really picked up on is “if it’s important do it every day,if its not important why do it at all ?”.

As to your second question i really couldn’t say…me old fart with memory problems…

Now…what were we saying ???

39

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]big nurse wrote:

[quote]JimmyBeans wrote:
Why do machines even have weight numbers written on them.

[/quote]

Just to piss you off…
[/quote]
It’s an evil plot to use your ego against you to keep you weak. If you can bench ‘300’ on the machine, but only 225 in real life, you’ll be tempted to use the machine to protect your ego. So you’ll never develop the ability to control big weight, and we all know control=power. In this way, they keep you powerless.

It’s all just part of the conspiracy, man.[/quote]

Really? I think different weight machine making companies use different strategies to accomplish the end goal of keeping people weak.

My apartment complex has a fatness center and the machine in there doesn’t have the weight written on it. It only numbers the plates. So you can bench the entire stack and the only number associated with your “accomplishment” is 25.

I think they’re trying to get people into the “I can only do 25, I suck. Screw exercise!” mentality.

40

So my new-&-improved workout is about 50/50 machines and weights (Using Machines for Cable Rows, Leg Curls, Leg Extensions, and Pulldowns)

Anyway, I’ve been doing goblet squats, and that’s all well and good, but holding dumbbells heavier than 10kg is kinda weird (size of the plates mostly I suppose) so I tried to bust some squats with an unloaded Oly bar…

…and very nearly ended up on my arse.
With some agile mid-squat duck shuffling, I saved my self from total embarrassment, put the bar down, picked up my Dumbbells, and went back to my goblet squats.

Not sure how to tackle that one yet.

My other problem is as I don’t have a spotter (often I’m the only person there, or there might be someone on a treadmill) I’m reluctant to load more than I know I can handle for the full set(s) with the bench press and military press.

Even though there are a perfectly decent range of fixed-weight BB, I’m using the Oly bar because I figure the longer bar makes me work harder on balance and stablisation, which can only be a good thing.

I didn’t really ask any questions there did I?

Ah well, that just proves how much good information is in all the articles available here.