T Nation

Getting E Down, No AI

Hi Everybody, I’m struggling to get my E dialed in, almost a year on TRT now, still switching dose back and forth.
Received my last bloods today, currently i am running 50mg E3.5d IM delts/quads.

My E2 (range 11.3-43.2) is currently at 53,7 and it looks like its creepin up, in summertime it was on 48, even at a slight higher T dose (62,5 mg) (btw current T is still over range (9.05)
I even upped my zink to 50 mg/day and still taking DIM, but it seems no matter. I totally want to avoid an AI. Do you have any other recomandations for me?
I dont have any issues with it, but thinking longtime that E should better be in range for prostate health and stuff.

I’m not fat, maybe gained a few pounds in the last month due to higher sports / nutrition intake.
SHBG has been 23.7 before starting trt.
thanks for your help.

I would not worry about “dialing in”. How are you feeling and is this dose and injection schedule working for you?

Your E2 is not significantly elevated.

Hi highpull,

to be honest, since i dropped the dose from 62 to 50 mg i felt better before. Feeling a little bit more tired since. But its not that I’m having a low feeling on injection day, maybe its just in my mind, or the estrogen makes me feel tired, i dont know. Morning wood is getting less too.
the 3.5d schedule is fine for me, but I’m thinking about trying to change it to eod now or first maybe e3d. do you think that would make sense?

That E2 is not a concern. There is no reason to think it will have negative consequences for your prostate or anything else, studies indicate maybe some benefits. Don’t worry about the monster in the closet, there isn’t one.

The body dials it in.

Not always in the way one wants though. That’s the issue.

Yeah, but he isn’t listing any actual negative sides, so that isn’t really an issue for him.

I see we’re back to treating numbers and not symptoms again.

Losing fat will lower E2, and almost for sure make you feel better (given you aren’t dipping into BBer on stage leanness). I don’t know if the lower E2 will make you feel better, but losing fat most likely will.

Thanks for your reply’s. You’re right, I don’t feel symptoms of high E, just worried about longtime sides. But if you say that’s ok, I will take more research on that. For my feeling I would up the dose back to 62.5mg :grin:

What about haematokrit? That’s slightly elevated as well why I thought lowering the T dose could have a positive impact on that too.
Currently 0.52 ( ref range 0.40-0.51l/l )

For fat loss I’m fine, actually trying to put on some mass. 92kg / 180cm. Doing bb since 20 years.

Go and give blood. Thay upper range for hematocrit is one to really watch. I’m no TRT expert but know about this for sure coming from a cycling (as in bikes) background.

Some of the old tour riders died in the night when their hematocrit got too high (Using EPO).

52 likely won’t do anything immediate but long term risk of stroke comes in if you’re above that upper marker.

Giving blood will bring it down- its not a long term solution but worth it right now.

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‘‘Additionally, DIM has been shown to inhibit an enzyme called aromatase, which converts testosterone to estrogen’’

Currently taking 150 mg DIM ed, even with 450mg it had no effects on my E. Blood test confirmed.

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Those guys ran hct into the upper 60s, and were blood doping on top of everything else. .

I know they went higher. Interested where you heard it was as high as 60? Some of them had to set alarms every 2 hours in the night to get up and get HR up as they were at risk of stalling (resting dropping so low it stopped). So yeah its not the same level I agree.

But UCI introduced an upper limit of 52 I think (actually might be 50), and if a pro rider creeps over this now they are benched for safety reasons. Interesting thats the safety level thise doctors decided on?

Trouble with hematocrits higher than that- if you get dehydrated you can run into thick blood issues.

I’m no doctor- but its considered dangerous in cycling/running/tri circles.

One of the things I’d be interested in some hard data on is how long it takes to creep up over time based on dosage, being new to this and having jumped back into about 10 to 15 hours hard cardio a week over the last month I’m conscious I need to take care with it.

On a side note- thats been a night and day thing for me. I’m recovering like when I was 20 again!

I think it is common knowledge that Marco Pantani ran his into the 60s. He did die, but I think it was due to a cocaine overdose.

But, yeah, the higher 60s are alleged. I personally heard a doctor speak of a Sherpa he tested who was at 67% with hgb at 26.

My HCT is 59. Giving blood doesn’t help all that much. It changes things for a few weeks, that’s it.

My doctor, my other doctor, and his NP all are utterly unconcerned about the number. In chronically ill people—or people who undergo enormous physical stress, say from cycling all day every day—that number is concerning. In people with zero risk factors they treat it as something that you should monitor but not freak out about.

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52 is nothing. I will recommend that we hydrate to the point of feeling like fish. The more water in your system the better it is. Also you cant compare yourself to pro atheletes that push the limits of exertion. I wouldnt start with giving blood. Drink lots of water, do anaerobic exercises. Also drink plenty of water before a BT so that you get a clearer pic.

Yeah. Its the dehydrated states you get in cycling. Nowt else like back to back 6 to 7hours of HR in z4!

I did a 14 hour stint a few years back with some guys who were built like Chris Froome. My eyes looked sunken for 2 days- just couldn’t get the fluid back in!

Thanks for your feedback. I know we treat symptoms, but personally I worry about my blood result when half of it shows red marks. I mean there should be a reason for it, still having a little trust in the medical science, not in my doc, he doesnt know anything about TRT. thats why I need your experience.
I decided to lower my dose a little, and switch back to SubQ, my documentation shows lower E and hope that my hematocrit will go down too when the dose is lower. We will see with next bloods. Last time i gulped down 1.5 liter before test, but they didnt send me my hematocrit this time, i am still waiting for it. hope they didnt forget it.

Hope with switching to subq and lowering the same time will not take me that down.
I split up my last shot, half IM, half SubQ, so subq can build up. My personal experience :smiley: