Get This Load of Crap

Off Topic
21

the people that are saying AA is the only way to go are absolutely correct. not only for her but also for you. AA is the only know cure for alcoholism and you have to think about it like a disease. if she had diabetes, you wouldnt get mad at her for it, just help her deal with it on a day to day basis, alcoholism is the same way.

you have gotten yourself on the path to destruction but its not too late to make a change.

also, my family had to use intervention for a relative, and it was very successful. this should definitely be an option you consider. PM me for some information about the clinic we used.

22

Get her help…that old Wives tale that an addict has to crash before they can actually go out and get help is purely bullshit
the sooner they actually do get help the better
its having an effect on you and your children and you should not have to deal with this
seriously get her help

23

[quote]toughcasey wrote:
AA is the only know cure for alcoholism … [/quote]

It’s never cured, only “arrested” for the time period you work a program. The guy 10 years sober can get straight to the bottom in 5 days if he has that first drink. The disease and allergy progresses even in sobriety.

24

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
toughcasey wrote:
AA is the only know cure for alcoholism …

It’s never cured, only “arrested” for the time period you work a program. The guy 10 years sober can get straight to the bottom in 5 days if he has that first drink. The disease and allergy progresses even in sobriety.
[/quote]

ya you are right, i should have put quotes around “cures” or used another word. i guess i figured my diabetes analogy would paint that picture, basically of something that is always there, but can be managed.

i do however disagree with you about intervention. most people might not realize that the actual purpose of an intervention is to get someone to therapy, not make them change. that is the only goal. while it may seem that the intense pressure would only make someone madder and worsen the situation, it is actually very helpful in convincing the person to enter therapy. this is especially true when done correctly, meaning that the person’s bags are packed and their plane ticket or ride to the clinic is in order when the intervention happens. there are some good professional interventionists out there that are masters of what they do and can almost guarantee that the person will enter therapy. once they get to therapy, this is when they have to actually make the choice to follow the 12 steps etc.

25

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
toughcasey wrote:
AA is the only know cure for alcoholism …

It’s never cured, only “arrested” for the time period you work a program. The guy 10 years sober can get straight to the bottom in 5 days if he has that first drink. The disease and allergy progresses even in sobriety.
[/quote]

I think 12 Step programs like AA are a a very important starting point for many people. In fact, if you’re thinking you need one, stop reading this post and just do it, because you shouldn’t read the rest.

As for the assertions made by the quoted posters, I say bullshit on both counts.

There are few “true” alcoholics with extra liver enzymes or the fatty acid deficiencies who will have the problem for life.

For those with psychological problems, AA has a very high rate of failure. Individualized programs are the only ones that really work. The programs that do work seem to all replace the alcohol with something more important.

The guy who is ten years sober and goes to the bottom with one drink does so because AA taught him that. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy that 12 Step programs perpetuate.

The postulate that an addict can never be cured is the primary major problem behind all 12 step programs, and the primary reason that people fail the program. Why go through a program that says you are doomed to fail by definition? In fact, 12 Step programs create a new addiction to themselves and never deal with the underlying problems. Almost like a cult.

If somebody told you that you were genetically programmed to be too skinny and were doomed to always be a skinny wimp until the day you die, would you believe him? Of course not. If somebody told you that eating one cheesecake slice would destroy all your hardwork building your body, would you believe him? Even Berardi doesn’t say that! If somebody told you the best way to deal with being a skinny wimp was to hang out with other skinny wimps, would you believe him? No!

Now throw alcoholism in, and everybody DOES believe. What’s with that?

I’ll have to dig up my old book “7 Weeks to Sobriety” for all the references.

OK, now that I’ve thrown this little bomb out there, you can all flame away and criticize me using the very same stuff that you were taught by AA itself.

26

[quote]yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
OK, now that I’ve thrown this little bomb out there, you can all flame away and criticize me using the very same stuff that you were taught by AA itself.[/quote]

No, you are entitled to your opinion.

But, do you have experience in the AA “cult”? or a personalized program at that?

I’ve seen guys 25 years sober go out and in a week end up in jail for killing someone.

27

People who want to quit drinking - they quit with or without AA. Those that don’t want it bad enough will never do it unless they are seriously shocked by some major event in their life(loss, tragedy…).

28

[quote]Majin wrote:
People who want to quit drinking - they quit with or without AA. Those that don’t want it bad enough will never do it unless they are seriously shocked by some major event in their life(loss, tragedy…).[/quote]

Pretty Much, yes.

29

You can’t stand your wife anymore.

What’s your option to divorce? Lead a miserable life ‘for the kids’.

At 10 yrs old I already wished my parents would friggin’ divorce already. Both were miserable, and the misery trickled down to me and my brothers like acid. I was 18 when they finally did - and the only thought in my head was, ‘Both of you wasted half your lives’.

You’re doing nobody a favor by hangin’ around. The best example you can set for your kids is to have the guts to be happy.

You’re miserable, your wife is drunk, and it’ll all trickle down to your kids. Kids have an uncanny ability to act like they know nothing even when they’re struck by something. I know because I did it all the time.

Man up, be happy, and show your kids nothing is worth being miserable for. You just might spare them 20 years of misery later in their lives.

30

Big ups, Rockscar! I’m in AA as well. You are doing a good thing, living the steps.

31

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
OK, now that I’ve thrown this little bomb out there, you can all flame away and criticize me using the very same stuff that you were taught by AA itself.

No, you are entitled to your opinion.

But, do you have experience in the AA “cult”? or a personalized program at that?

I’ve seen guys 25 years sober go out and in a week end up in jail for killing someone.
[/quote]

I started out with an Al-Anon program somebody suggested for me about 15 years ago when my girlfriend was doing crack. I knew in my gut there was something odd with the program from the first meeting, so I started researching it and reading up on psychology, addiction and programs.

(BTW, it turns out all I needed to do was kick her out of the house for good. Problem solved. No more meetings.)

Lately I’ve been reading up on the psychology of success, which is not well studied. (If you’re successful you obviously don’t talk to psychologists, do you?) I think teaching addicts how to be successful, healthy people instead of dealing with their deficiencies is area that could have a lot of promise.

I think a guy who is 25 years sober should stop calling himself an alcoholic and start emphasizing his success in life. It’s an NLP thing.

I’ve lately decided to investigate some positive individual therapy myself which is all success oriented, not failure oriented.

32

I think you are only half right.
A guy 25 years sober should call himself a recovering alcoholic and consider it a success.
The perpetuation theory is valid to some extent. If they can’t get to the point of calling it a success, they need to continue going to meetings with the intent of success.
As for me at Al-anon. I am not a success. I have not learned to cope with my reaction to alcoholism. Until I learn, I am not a success.

Also, if everyone who was a success quit going, who would sponsor the new comers. Success stories are needed at the meetings for their story. We have a 70 year old our meetings, she rambles a bit, but she deals with it real well and has taught us all a lot. Does she need to be their for healing - no. She is their for us and to give back to the people who were there for her.

33

[quote]yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
OK, now that I’ve thrown this little bomb out there, you can all flame away and criticize me using the very same stuff that you were taught by AA itself.

No, you are entitled to your opinion.

But, do you have experience in the AA “cult”? or a personalized program at that?

I’ve seen guys 25 years sober go out and in a week end up in jail for killing someone.

I started out with an Al-Anon program somebody suggested for me about 15 years ago when my girlfriend was doing crack. I knew in my gut there was something odd with the program from the first meeting, so I started researching it and reading up on psychology, addiction and programs.

(BTW, it turns out all I needed to do was kick her out of the house for good. Problem solved. No more meetings.)

Lately I’ve been reading up on the psychology of success, which is not well studied. (If you’re successful you obviously don’t talk to psychologists, do you?) I think teaching addicts how to be successful, healthy people instead of dealing with their deficiencies is area that could have a lot of promise.

I think a guy who is 25 years sober should stop calling himself an alcoholic and start emphasizing his success in life. It’s an NLP thing.

I’ve lately decided to investigate some positive individual therapy myself which is all success oriented, not failure oriented.[/quote]

Alcoholics have a compusion of the mind coupled with a physical “allergy” to alcohol. If someone who was 25 years sober chose to quit going to meetings because he was a “success”, there is a chance he would drink again, triggering the physical alergy. Meetings and helping other recovered drunks is what keeps alcoholics sober. No amount of sobriety, or “success” (in your terribly faulted language) is every going to make an alcoholic able to successfully drink if he picks one up.

Your choice of words proves that you know nothing about the nature of addiction. This isn’t winners and losers, this is chemistry, psychology, spirituality, and cold hard facts.

34

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
OK, now that I’ve thrown this little bomb out there, you can all flame away and criticize me using the very same stuff that you were taught by AA itself.

No, you are entitled to your opinion.

But, do you have experience in the AA “cult”? or a personalized program at that?

I’ve seen guys 25 years sober go out and in a week end up in jail for killing someone.

I started out with an Al-Anon program somebody suggested for me about 15 years ago when my girlfriend was doing crack. I knew in my gut there was something odd with the program from the first meeting, so I started researching it and reading up on psychology, addiction and programs.

(BTW, it turns out all I needed to do was kick her out of the house for good. Problem solved. No more meetings.)

Lately I’ve been reading up on the psychology of success, which is not well studied. (If you’re successful you obviously don’t talk to psychologists, do you?) I think teaching addicts how to be successful, healthy people instead of dealing with their deficiencies is area that could have a lot of promise.

I think a guy who is 25 years sober should stop calling himself an alcoholic and start emphasizing his success in life. It’s an NLP thing.

I’ve lately decided to investigate some positive individual therapy myself which is all success oriented, not failure oriented.

Alcoholics have a compusion of the mind coupled with a physical “allergy” to alcohol. If someone who was 25 years sober chose to quit going to meetings because he was a “success”, there is a chance he would drink again, triggering the physical alergy. Meetings and helping other recovered drunks is what keeps alcoholics sober. [/quote]

Bullshit. The only reason there is “a chance” is because AA has programmed him that way.

In fact, he’s now addicted to the meetings instead. Think about it; the AA member has no power, he HAS to go to the meetings. You say the meetings are not an addiction? That means you’re in denial, aren’t you? They say you can never leave AA without bad consequences? Sounds like a cult to me.

Hold on a second…What does success have to do with drinking? Not one damn thing. Success is about mastering your own destiny. Nobody ever said an alcoholic should drink again, and I sure don’t recommend it.

[quote]Your choice of words proves that you know nothing about the nature of addiction. This isn’t winners and losers, this is chemistry, psychology, spirituality, and cold hard facts.
[/quote]

Mastering your life is about winning big time. Being an alcoholic for the rest of your life is about being a loser for the rest of your life.

You just repeat what you’re told at AA meetings. Like a good boy.

Yes, I know about liver enzymes, tetrahydroisoquinaline (THIQ), and fatty acid deficiencies, all of which are the physical, chemical mechanisms which cause true physical alcoholism, which is actually relatively rare. All of which are manageable through physical treatment.

Why the hell you would “treat” a physical problem with the psychology of failure I still don’t understand. Mixing chemistry and psychology is like mixing beer and liquor. (Sorry, bad analogy.)

I take that back. For many people it works, so in a lot of ways it’s good. Especially when you’re just starting out.

But I stand by my statement that if you’ve been sober for 25 years, you’re no longer a “recovering alcoholic” and you need to stop being addicted to the negative stigma and negative words; you’re a damn strong successful person who has mastered his/her life and will continue to do so.

Rip that negative alcoholic label off your forehead and live your life as a positive masterful person. (Well, only if you ARE sober.)

Better yet, do what works FOR YOU. My only concern is that 12 Step programs are negatively oriented, and the power of positive psychology is so much more, well, powerful.

I just wanted to get people thinking and challenge the status quo. You are now free to rip me a new one.

35

[quote]yorik wrote:

Better yet, do what works FOR YOU. [/quote]

Thank you very much for your first hand insight. The expertise of a non-alcoholic in matters like this is something that means very little to me. I’ve tried everything, and working the steps of AA have saved my life. The addiction of working with others is a virtuous one.

I could care less if I’m addicted to something like that. This is a life and death deal to me and I’m going to take your advice and keep doing what works.

36

[quote]yorik wrote:
Bullshit. The only reason there is “a chance” is because AA has programmed him that way.

In fact, he’s now addicted to the meetings instead. Think about it; the AA member has no power, he HAS to go to the meetings. You say the meetings are not an addiction? That means you’re in denial, aren’t you? They say you can never leave AA without bad consequences? Sounds like a cult to me.
[/quote]

You don’t seem to know much about true addiction. It is now believed to have a strong genetic component meaning that a person who becomes addicted to drugs or alcohol would more than likely have become addicted to SOMETHING regardless.

Substitution with a more positive “addiction” would be preferred in those cases. I am all for realizing the power of the mind, but I don’t ignore the science that shows some people are born prone to addiction.

37

[quote]yorik wrote:
Better yet, do what works FOR YOU. My only concern is that 12 Step programs are negatively oriented, and the power of positive psychology is so much more, well, powerful.

[/quote]

Here’s something you won’t find in the Big Book-

Some people will here what they want to hear whether anybody says it or not.

It sounds like you have done just that.

I and the people that I go to meetings with have a very posative outlook on life. There isn’t much in life more posative or fulfilling than getting sober, staying sober, then helping others to do the same. The tools we use are also applicable to other parts of life.

Thats where it gets realy neat. I and a bunch of others that I hang with have found that when you practice some simple principles- like patience and tollerance, honesty open-mindedness, and willingness,- situations at work and home start to change too. This stuff doesn’t just apply to abstinence from alcohol.

When you deal face to face with another human being, and are able to address their human condition, something very good and genuine happens. True communication occurs.

When you do this in all of your affairs, like at work, the gym, with a signifigant other- Life gets good.

Maybee you were just hanging with the wrong people though.
The rooms are just as full of fuck ups and losers as any other place.

38

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/03/20/TampaBay/Study_links_genetic_t.shtml

That is simply the link to an article written on the subject. If you are resistant to that, I am sure other true studies are not hard to find.

39

Approach a high ‘quality’ divorce attorney in your state (assuming you’re not destitute, and if you are you shouldn’t have 4 children) and start working with the attorney to build up a mountain of evidence against your wife, if the laws in your state swing heavily towards the mother as you say.

In Michigan it’s illegal to record a conversation without the consent of the other person, although there appears to be a precedent for doing it I think it’s something that would not work out for you in the long run- even though it may be the most effective method of catching your wife in the act and using it against her.

Assuming you want to keep your children and as much of your money as possible the best way to deal with this is to be completely malicious and work privately with an attorney who is skilled in essentially ruining other people for as long as it takes- and dropping the bombshell on her from out of nowhere.

I don’t know if you’d have the “chops” to do this, but having 4 children around an abusive alcoholic who apparently refuses to change is not exactly what I would call an ideal situation.

You have to decide whether or not you want to stay with this woman, and judging by the small amount you’ve said in this thread I would imagine you don’t. If you don’t, then there’s one way to do this right, and it’s dirty.

RE: AA, I find SOS and SMART to be infinitely superior to the AA system assuming you actually want to take responsibility for your actions. AA is surrender (I’m sure I’ll get flamed for that), and SOS/SMART is responsibility and progress.

40

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You don’t seem to know much about true addiction. It is now believed to have a strong genetic component meaning that a person who becomes addicted to drugs or alcohol would more than likely have become addicted to SOMETHING regardless.

Substitution with a more positive “addiction” would be preferred in those cases. I am all for realizing the power of the mind, but I don’t ignore the science that shows some people are born prone to addiction. [/quote]

As a drunken Irishman who comes from a long line of drunken Irishmen, I would have to agree with the genetic component.

The substitution thing gets tricky though. I did that when I was younger. I quit a long list of substances and became a work-aholic. Started a company, ground out 18 hrs a day, and was still as crazy as when I was using.

After a while, with work being my salvation, I figured, “what’s so bad about a bag or two of smack? I work hard, and I can afford it.” Of course, after a couple stunts like that, a few beers doesn’t seem so bad. It’s not like it’s heroine or something. Right?

An addicts mind is a tricky thing.

What it seems that a lot of people miss is that working the twelve steps helps to address a number of cognative malfunctions to.
Rectifying cognative disssonance, questioning and dispelling faulty conclusins, practicing a good locus of control, all kinds of good shit.