Germany Trying to Preserve Culture

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

This is a growing sentiment. I have always believed in the melting pot, however, as of late, immigrants are not assimilating to the host country like in earlier years. The more a country allows new cultures and languages without some sort of standard to it’s own origins, it ceases to exist.

Europe is seeing what this is doing to their countries. In their case it is the Ideology of Islam, and the unwillingness of them to 'join in".

This is encouraging on one end, but discouraging on another. I like the fact that countries are finally seeing that being PC only gets them muzzled in the end. The scary part is that this is going to be a large racial issue in Europe.

One question should be asked for all those who believe in open immigration. Do you want immigrants to embrace your country, its values and culture when they come? Or do you want them here just in the name of Diversity?

I wish we could live in Utopia, but that is truly a fantasy. Some mixes of people/society/Laws/Religion simply don’t allow for it. Oil does not mix with water. When will we truly understand this as more of a scientific calculation instead of a “racist” viewpoint?

2

Everyone loves diversity and multiculturalism, until it moves in next door.

3

I completely agree with this.

I welcome immigration, on the condition that the immigrants are willing to embrace the customs and lifestyle of the host country. They are welcome to maintain their religion and keep their beliefs, as long as they do not conflict with the basic laws of the country. An example of this is with Sikhism. There are a set of rules known as the “5 Pillars”. One of which forbids men from cutting their hair. This is fine, as wearing a turban does not break any Canadian law or endanger any other person (exception would be if they want to ride a motorcycle, in which case, the hair goes or you do not ride). Another pillar involves carrying around a “kirpan”, which is a dagger kept at your side. Umm, no. They can make all the arguments they want that it’s ceremonial or decorative, but in this country it is considered a concealed weapon, and no special allowance should be made for it. If you don’t like it, go back to India.

There is a natural inclination for people of the same ethnicity to live close to one another. I can understand this, as it forms a natural support group and there is an almost innate human tendency to help people of similar background. I have no problem with this, and most cities have a “little italy”, “greektown”, “chinatown” and so on and it makes them diverse and interesting. Where the problem begins is when this cloistered little community becomes, in effect, a “mini-India” or “mini-China”, and is able to function without any regard to the customs of the host country. I’m singling out India and China here, as well as many of the muslim communities, because in my experience they show absolutely no interest in integration whatsoever. Speaking for Toronto anyway, I find that Africans, Koreans, Europeans and especially South Americans take real strides to assimilate into the Canadian way of life. India, China…not so much (would anybody who lives around Brampton, Ontario argue with me here?).

Another thing which gets to me is learning English. In Canada, we provide EVERY immigrant the opportunity to enroll in LINC (Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada). This is a government-funded program with actual, professional English teachers…not kindly retirees volunteering their time, but people who have pursued Masters degrees in English instruction. LINC has several locations in every Canadian city, will pay your taxi and/or bus fare to get there, and has FREE child-minding with licensed day-care workers. The hours are extremely flexible and they offer home-schooling courses as well for people who work long hours. This is a widely known and widely publicized program, and immigrants constantly receive mailings encouraging enrollment. LINC removes literally every possible excuse someone would have for not learning English, and despite this, an absolute shitload of immigrants in Toronto, many of whom have been in Canada for 20 years, CANNOT SPEAK ENGLISH. I’m not expecting fluency, as English is a very hard language to learn, but at least take some strides towards learning the language. I think Canada should have a mandatory language test after x years of moving here. You fail, you get one chance for a make-up test. Fail again, goodbye. Japan is talking about doing this and I completely agree with it.

(In all fairness, I extend these views to foreigners living in Japan too. There are groups of Canadians, Brits, Aussies who have lived here for 10 years, only associate with each other and cannot speak the language. This pisses me off just as much as the situation in Canada)

4

does this apply to Asians ?

because, i found the opposite to be true in France.
i have had students from chinese / vietnamese origin in my classes.
in September they couldn’t speak or read a word of french.
but in June they were fluents, and amongst the best. even better than many “natives”.

they were some of the most respectful students i have known too.

5

Well, Asia is pretty big. There are a TON of Indians and Chinese in Toronto who cannot express even the most basic of ideas in English (I do realize that these two countries represent almost half of the world’s population and that there are proportionally more immigrants from these countries coming into Canada, and I am taking this into account). Part of the reason for this is that, as it stands now, they have no reason to learn it! There are functional “mini-Indias” and “mini-Chinas” in Toronto and surrounding areas, where they can live and conduct business solely in their native languages.

I’ve found that Southeast Asians tend to make a real effort at communicating in English. They should be commended for this, as their native languages are tonal-based which makes learning English much, much harder (Mandarin Chinese is tonal as well).

I haven’t run into too many Koreans around Toronto who can’t speak decent English, and I have yet to meet a longterm Japanese immigrant to Canada who isn’t near-fluent (again, longterm…I am excluding exchange students here).

So I think it boils down to having a large enough immigrant population to develop “mini-countries” which take away any impetus to learn English. SE Asians and Koreans don’t have self-sustaining communities like this, which in turn forces them to learn English

[quote]kamui wrote:

because, i found the opposite to be true in France.
i have had students from chinese / vietnamese origin in my classes.
in September they couldn’t speak or read a word of french.
but in June they were fluents, and amongst the best. even better than many “natives”.

they were some of the most respectful students i have known too.
[/quote]

6

There was a time when it was allright to be in the know about jews. There was a time when the nature of blacks was widely understood. The nature of indian bandit races, the differing nature of the arabs, chinese, amerindian etc. Liberal education and legislation, egalitarianism slowly did away with what was once common folk wisdom and made it a taboo to be smart about some things. There is still some fight left and the internet has helped, but no doubt the surviving speakers of reason will be branded as vestigial fools of a dark age by the gatekeepers of history just like happened to those before us.

Excuse me while I go watch another Hollywood movie about a secretive neo-nazi organization that will take over the government.

7

I might get flamed for this but:

The reality is that much (not all) of the Islamic world basically hasn’t changed since the 11th century, especially the Arab part (the Turks kept pace with the Europeans pretty well till the 16th century). And those that did “liberalize” (think western parts of the Islamic world: Egypt, Morocco, even Damascus) in the early part of the 20th century have, in many ways, taken a step back with the wahabiest, oil-powered, influence post WWII.

So you basically have had an 11th century culture, get rocked into the 21st century (with all the media and technology that goes with it) almost overnight (over 60 some years) fueled by oil money.

These are cultures that not only haven’t changed much over the past millennium, but now cultures (/people within the culture) who believe that their approach is successful because places like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, exe. are not extremely wealthy/successful on the world stage.

There’s no cultural memory of needing to change or ‘melt’ in order to grow or succeed, only a massive counter-example illustrating the contrary: we can keep our same archaic cultural norms and not adapt to the 21st century, while in just a couple generations moving from tent-dwelling nomads, to metropolis-dwelling power-houses on the world geo-political stage.

8

The German state has never had a proactive approach towards multiculturalism or even an integrative approach - especially not the two conservative sister parties CDU and CSU which have been involved in government for 21 of the last 27 years. Its immigration and citizenship laws have always reflected the notion that people would ‘go home’ one day - and hence simply haven’t invested into integrative efforts. That’s why e.g. you can be third generation Turkish, born in German, speak only German and still not be a German citizen.

With net immigration, the number of asylum seekers, etc. significantly down (a trend that has held over years now), Merkel is simply reacting to a trend kicked off by the likes of Thilo Sarazin (and just in the last few days Horst Seehofer) who are mimicking anti-immigrant populists in other European states to raise their profile. In a sense, Merkel is complaining about something her own party has fostered: lack of integration based on a lack of integrative measures. I.e. in order to complain about a failure of multiculturalism, it would have to be tried in the first place. It’s a bit sad that a normally relatively rational (albeit conservative) politician like Merkel now jumps onto this bandwagon - though given her abysmal approval ratings not really a surprise.

Makkun

9

Well, all I gotta say is that we had the Crusades for a reason. If people don’t want to pay attention to history, or make their own history up. Let them, but I try to avoid repeating history.

10

https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&shva=1#inbox
nuff said

11

Overall Pimp, you wrote an interesting post, but there were some things I wondered about.

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:

There is a natural inclination for people of the same ethnicity to live close to one another. I can understand this, as it forms a natural support group and there is an almost innate human tendency to help people of similar background. I have no problem with this, and most cities have a “little italy”, “greektown”, “chinatown” and so on and it makes them diverse and interesting. Where the problem begins is when this cloistered little community becomes, in effect, a “mini-India” or “mini-China”, and is able to function without any regard to the customs of the host country. I’m singling out India and China here, as well as many of the muslim communities, because in my experience they show absolutely no interest in integration whatsoever. Speaking for Toronto anyway, I find that Africans, Koreans, Europeans and especially South Americans take real strides to assimilate into the Canadian way of life. India, China…not so much (would anybody who lives around Brampton, Ontario argue with me here?). [/quote]

I’m surprised by both of these examples, but especially “Indians.” I’ve only met one Chinese immigrant who couldn’t communicate well in English, and she viewed herself as a “housewife” and spent her time cleaning the mansion her husband had bought. I’ve never met an Indian who couldn’t effectively communicate in English. Perhaps this is just my experiences in America. India and China themselves are big places. Perhaps different groups are immigrating to the States and to Canada?

[quote]
Another thing which gets to me is learning English. In Canada, we provide EVERY immigrant the opportunity to enroll in LINC (Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada). This is a government-funded program with actual, professional English teachers…not kindly retirees volunteering their time, but people who have pursued Masters degrees in English instruction. LINC has several locations in every Canadian city, will pay your taxi and/or bus fare to get there, and has FREE child-minding with licensed day-care workers. The hours are extremely flexible and they offer home-schooling courses as well for people who work long hours. This is a widely known and widely publicized program, and immigrants constantly receive mailings encouraging enrollment. LINC removes literally every possible excuse someone would have for not learning English, and despite this, an absolute shitload of immigrants in Toronto, many of whom have been in Canada for 20 years, CANNOT SPEAK ENGLISH. I’m not expecting fluency, as English is a very hard language to learn, but at least take some strides towards learning the language. I think Canada should have a mandatory language test after x years of moving here. You fail, you get one chance for a make-up test. Fail again, goodbye. Japan is talking about doing this and I completely agree with it.

(In all fairness, I extend these views to foreigners living in Japan too. There are groups of Canadians, Brits, Aussies who have lived here for 10 years, only associate with each other and cannot speak the language. This pisses me off just as much as the situation in Canada) [/quote]

I remember growing up and my grandmother reminding me again and again that “I learned English, why can’t they!?!” So I see your point.

It’s been a few years since I looked at Japan’s proposed policies, but as I understood them, they were directed at permanent residency visas and other “self-sponsored” right? I would agree with those needing language abilities as well. Your “friends” in Japan, however, probably had either temporary “Humanities” visas (good for 1-3years) or “Spousal” visas, right? For the former, I would argue that Japan as decided, correctly or not, that they need/want English speaking foreigners in the country. As long as they see themselves with this need, they shouldn’t mandate any language scores. For the later, I would argue families and family unity are more important than Language/assimilation. 'Course, I might get off on a rant about dual-visas and children…but I’ll stop before I do.

That being said, there are some (admittedly limited)economic advantages to having non-“home country” language speakers in your country. These are why temporary visas should be more common in my country (the US) and why I think they exist in Japan.

eh… my 2 cents.

12

[quote]makkun wrote:
The German state has never had a proactive approach towards multiculturalism or even an integrative approach - especially not the two conservative sister parties CDU and CSU which have been involved in government for 21 of the last 27 years. Its immigration and citizenship laws have always reflected the notion that people would ‘go home’ one day - and hence simply haven’t invested into integrative efforts. That’s why e.g. you can be third generation Turkish, born in German, speak only German and still not be a German citizen.

With net immigration, the number of asylum seekers, etc. significantly down (a trend that has held over years now), Merkel is simply reacting to a trend kicked off by the likes of Thilo Sarazin (and just in the last few days Horst Seehofer) who are mimicking anti-immigrant populists in other European states to raise their profile. In a sense, Merkel is complaining about something her own party has fostered: lack of integration based on a lack of integrative measures. I.e. in order to complain about a failure of multiculturalism, it would have to be tried in the first place. It’s a bit sad that a normally relatively rational (albeit conservative) politician like Merkel now jumps onto this bandwagon - though given her abysmal approval ratings not really a surprise.

Makkun[/quote]

So if I understand this correctly, Germany does not feel compelled to take measures of integration because the people that actually live there don’t technically live there, and people who have been there for several generations have never lived there?

That requires a person to play jedi mind tricks on themself that I can’t comprehend.

In fact, just considering this has sprained my corpus calosum.

13

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Overall Pimp, you wrote an interesting post, but there were some things I wondered about.

I’m surprised by both of these examples, but especially “Indians.” I’ve only met one Chinese immigrant who couldn’t communicate well in English, and she viewed herself as a “housewife” and spent her time cleaning the mansion her husband had bought. I’ve never met an Indian who couldn’t effectively communicate in English. Perhaps this is just my experiences in America. India and China themselves are big places. Perhaps different groups are immigrating to the States and to Canada?
[/quote]

I’m not sure about different groups migrating to Canada as opposed to the States. I would be inclined to doubt there would be any difference, but I don’t know. I used to work extensively in the GTA (“Greater Toronto Area”), and there very distinct patches where everyday English use is not the norm. There are a good number of businesses operating which cater exclusively to people of the same nationality, whose owners literally cannot speak a word of English. I worked the area in a medical sales capacity and would sometimes go into doctor’s offices where the receptionist could not speak English. I’d say “Hi there, I’m PimpBot5000 from evil Big Pharma, could I speak to Dr. Singh?” and they’d laugh nervously and say something like “English…no”. (The patient body would be exclusively Indian). This is unacceptable, especially considering many of these places were walk-in clinics! Heaven forbid a caucasian kid walks in and tries to articulate that he has a severe pennicilin allergy.

You’re right, the Japanese proposals that I have seen have been for people seeking self-sponsorship and permanent residency. I haven’t been following this closely, but the last time I looked they were talking about having a 2-kyuu proficiency level as a benchmark for staying. This is more than reasonable…I earned my 2-kyuu within 2 years of entering the country, and this is with a very average intellect and less than stellar study habits!

Japan is starting to rethink their previously held notion that having native English speakers is beneficial to overall English education. There exists something called the “JET Program”, which is a government funded initiative to bring English speakers to the country for a few years. It was an experiment to see if Japan’s abysmal level of English proficiency could be improved…and it seems to be failing (A lot of this isn’t the fault of the English speaker, it’s that they are underutilized in the classroom). There are rumblings that the government might be doing away with the program entirely. There will always be “Specialists in Humanities” visas to be given out, but possibly not as many as before.

14

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Overall Pimp, you wrote an interesting post, but there were some things I wondered about.

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:

There is a natural inclination for people of the same ethnicity to live close to one another. I can understand this, as it forms a natural support group and there is an almost innate human tendency to help people of similar background. I have no problem with this, and most cities have a “little italy”, “greektown”, “chinatown” and so on and it makes them diverse and interesting. Where the problem begins is when this cloistered little community becomes, in effect, a “mini-India” or “mini-China”, and is able to function without any regard to the customs of the host country. I’m singling out India and China here, as well as many of the muslim communities, because in my experience they show absolutely no interest in integration whatsoever. Speaking for Toronto anyway, I find that Africans, Koreans, Europeans and especially South Americans take real strides to assimilate into the Canadian way of life. India, China…not so much (would anybody who lives around Brampton, Ontario argue with me here?). [/quote]

I’m surprised by both of these examples, but especially “Indians.” I’ve only met one Chinese immigrant who couldn’t communicate well in English, and she viewed herself as a “housewife” and spent her time cleaning the mansion her husband had bought. I’ve never met an Indian who couldn’t effectively communicate in English. Perhaps this is just my experiences in America. India and China themselves are big places. Perhaps different groups are immigrating to the States and to Canada?

Besides deeply religious Indians that speak sanskrit, most Indians speak English. So…not sure where he gets his information.

15

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[…]
So if I understand this correctly, Germany does not feel compelled to take measures of integration because the people that actually live there don’t technically live there, and people who have been there for several generations have never lived there?

That requires a person to play jedi mind tricks on themself that I can’t comprehend.

In fact, just considering this has sprained my corpus calosum.[/quote]

Germany has always been quite conservative on this issue and policy has been driven by the conviction that it is not a target of immigration (‘Deutschland ist kein Einwanderungsland’) - thus ignoring the problem that it of course is. Therefore imho necessary reforms of citizenship and immigration laws have been stalled, and measures haven’t been taken. So indeed yes, there have been several generations of people with a migration background living in Germany who don’t hold citizenship - and incentives to gain it, as well as integrative measures (such as funding for language classes etc.) have been lacking. If you find that weird - be my guest.

My point about Merkel is not so much the need to address this issue of immigration / integration (for which her party had plenty of opportunity), but that she jumps into the debate now: numbers are down significantly, but in spite of that the debate is raging (probably stoked by economic fears). And - it’s a bit hypocritical given that her party is consistently to blame for not updating the pertinent laws.

Makkun [edited for typos]

16

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Besides deeply religious Indians that speak sanskrit, most Indians speak English. So…not sure where he gets his information.
[/quote]

A quick google search reveals that roughly 23% of Indians can speak English, of which a tiny percentage are native speakers (Again, this is a rough estimate, as it is hard to measure exact levels of usage). A large majority of the country are identified as “English users”, meaning they can identify certain words but are not necessarily able to form things like, oh, sentences and basic dialogue.

So no, “most” Indians do not speak English with any degree of proficiency.

17

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

This is a growing sentiment. I have always believed in the melting pot, however, as of late, immigrants are not assimilating to the host country like in earlier years. The more a country allows new cultures and languages without some sort of standard to it’s own origins, it ceases to exist.

Europe is seeing what this is doing to their countries. In their case it is the Ideology of Islam, and the unwillingness of them to 'join in".

This is encouraging on one end, but discouraging on another. I like the fact that countries are finally seeing that being PC only gets them muzzled in the end. The scary part is that this is going to be a large racial issue in Europe.

One question should be asked for all those who believe in open immigration. Do you want immigrants to embrace your country, its values and culture when they come? Or do you want them here just in the name of Diversity?

I wish we could live in Utopia, but that is truly a fantasy. Some mixes of people/society/Laws/Religion simply don’t allow for it. Oil does not mix with water. When will we truly understand this as more of a scientific calculation instead of a “racist” viewpoint?
[/quote]

Most immigrants try to preserve its own culture and socialize with their countrymen.

18

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Overall Pimp, you wrote an interesting post, but there were some things I wondered about.

I’m surprised by both of these examples, but especially “Indians.” I’ve only met one Chinese immigrant who couldn’t communicate well in English, and she viewed herself as a “housewife” and spent her time cleaning the mansion her husband had bought. I’ve never met an Indian who couldn’t effectively communicate in English. Perhaps this is just my experiences in America. India and China themselves are big places. Perhaps different groups are immigrating to the States and to Canada?
[/quote]

I’m not sure about different groups migrating to Canada as opposed to the States. I would be inclined to doubt there would be any difference, but I don’t know. I used to work extensively in the GTA (“Greater Toronto Area”), and there very distinct patches where everyday English use is not the norm. There are a good number of businesses operating which cater exclusively to people of the same nationality, whose owners literally cannot speak a word of English. I worked the area in a medical sales capacity and would sometimes go into doctor’s offices where the receptionist could not speak English. I’d say “Hi there, I’m PimpBot5000 from evil Big Pharma, could I speak to Dr. Singh?” and they’d laugh nervously and say something like “English…no”. (The patient body would be exclusively Indian). This is unacceptable, especially considering many of these places were walk-in clinics! Heaven forbid a caucasian kid walks in and tries to articulate that he has a severe pennicilin allergy.[/quote]

Yeah, I agree that that shouldn’t exist. I think assimilation has to be part of migration. I’ve never heard much talk of such issues with Chinese or Indians in the States, but perhaps I was never really in a situation to hear of it. Of course, everyone knows the US has issues with Hispanic assimilation.

You’re right, the Japanese proposals that I have seen have been for people seeking self-sponsorship and permanent residency. I haven’t been following this closely, but the last time I looked they were talking about having a 2-kyuu proficiency level as a benchmark for staying. This is more than reasonable…I earned my 2-kyuu within 2 years of entering the country, and this is with a very average intellect and less than stellar study habits!

Japan is starting to rethink their previously held notion that having native English speakers is beneficial to overall English education. There exists something called the “JET Program”, which is a government funded initiative to bring English speakers to the country for a few years. It was an experiment to see if Japan’s abysmal level of English proficiency could be improved…and it seems to be failing (A lot of this isn’t the fault of the English speaker, it’s that they are underutilized in the classroom). There are rumblings that the government might be doing away with the program entirely. There will always be “Specialists in Humanities” visas to be given out, but possibly not as many as before.[/quote]

lol. Yeah, the JET program is a tangent that could go on for awhile. I think it’ll die a slow death via a company called INTERAC and more and more foreigners coming to Japan. It’s already almost completely extinct in the cities. I’ve personally noticed HUGE changes in the last 5 years alone.

While I agree “Humanities” visas may decrease, overall I think immigration will increase. If for no other reason than because of the need for nurses for the elderly (robots can’t do it all…although the Japanese will try).

And you must have more than average intellect to get 2kyuu in that time (It took me 2.5years :wink:

19

This will continue to be a growing trend, as it should be, and not for any racial reasons but because globalism as a system is a complete and utter failure. Countries had self sustaining economies for hundreds of years but with the advent of globalization it was suddenly deemed ok to let millions of cheap labor workers into your country so that the rich could exploit them.

And let’s not beat around the bush, the rich do want the cheap labor and could give a shit about the native population. And the rich are the ones who have benefited, not the middle class.

20

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

And let’s not beat around the bush, the rich do want the cheap labor and could give a shit about the native population. And the rich are the ones who have benefited, not the middle class.

[/quote]

Here we go…

The host Country created the political environment and business policies that allowed the rich to hire cheap labor, as do the middle class. How many times do middle class households hire illegals for construction and landscaping? Rich only?

We are so quick to blame the rich when the fact is the rich only react to the business environment that allows the hiring of illegals and immigrants.

One example is the Senate race in CA.

Boxer has been in for 28 YEARS! She created the crap CA business environment that DRIVES BUSINESS OUT, yet now she bashes Carly Fiorna for outsourcing CA jobs when she was CEO for HP. That’s pretty much her entire argument. Barbara created the environment, yet criticizes businesses for reacting to those policies BOXER created.