T Nation

George Dilman and Ryukyu Kempo Karate

i started taking my 4 year old son at a Ryukyu Kempo Karate school. For him, its perfect.

but i started doing some reading on pressure point knockouts and other things about Dillman. I find some of the claims hard to believe. Just wondering if anyone here has experience with pressure point knockouts.

Dillman is a fraud. There is some truth to the notion that if you hit certain points on the human body it can result in a KO (the point of the chin for example or the carotid sinus), but most of Dillman’s stuff is just smoke and mirrors or the power of suggestion. Dillman and people like him only tend to “demonstrate” their stuff on their own students and if by chance someone talks them into demoing it on them and it doesn’t work they come out with nonsense like “oh, well your chi/ki just isn’t developed enough for me to be able to manipulate it”, or “oh, well you just aren’t trained enough for this to work on you”. My instructor has stood in front of Dillman himself and had him try one of his pressure point KO’s and it did not work.

This type of nonsensical “super natural” martial arts is quite frankly a disgrace to real martial artists.

Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. I would also be wary as a parent as these systems are notorious “black belt factories” (ask them how long it generally takes to earn a black belt, if it’s less than 6 years in any case then that’s a red flag, also look around and see if they have a bunch of under 18 year old black belts, another red flag) who will basically just sell people their black belt (i.e. you just keep paying them for the rank evaluations and they’ll keep promoting you/your child to the next rank, even if that person couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag). They tend to be about quantity and not quality.

Maybe it’s the only MA school in your area, or maybe the instructor is very good with kids and is known for developing moral, well adjusted students/members of society, or maybe you have checked out all of the schools and have decided that this one is the best choice (has the best vibe, your son has friends that go there, is the most convenient locationwise, etc…). If so, I’m not trying to make you change your mind or go against your gut. But, if you haven’t checked around to the other schools in your area you might want to do so.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

thanks. the teachers are very good with kids and they do spend time developing character. They are a “wow” charcter development participant and it seemed good to me.

its the most convenent for me right now. if he sticks with it for another year i will look for something else. At only 4 and with the attention span of a four year old, i dont have the highest expectations. he is still leaning the basic punches, blocks, kicks.

no “no touch knockout” yet. but they have taught him a pressure point defense move that hurts really bad when he does it to me.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Dillman is a fraud. There is some truth to the notion that if you hit certain points on the human body it can result in a KO (the point of the chin for example or the carotid sinus), but most of Dillman’s stuff is just smoke and mirrors or the power of suggestion. Dillman and people like him only tend to “demonstrate” their stuff on their own students and if by chance someone talks them into demoing it on them and it doesn’t work they come out with nonsense like “oh, well your chi/ki just isn’t developed enough for me to be able to manipulate it”, or “oh, well you just aren’t trained enough for this to work on you”. My instructor has stood in front of Dillman himself and had him try one of his pressure point KO’s and it did not work.

This type of nonsensical “super natural” martial arts is quite frankly a disgrace to real martial artists.

Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. I would also be wary as a parent as these systems are notorious “black belt factories” (ask them how long it generally takes to earn a black belt, if it’s less than 6 years in any case then that’s a red flag, also look around and see if they have a bunch of under 18 year old black belts, another red flag) who will basically just sell people their black belt (i.e. you just keep paying them for the rank evaluations and they’ll keep promoting you/your child to the next rank, even if that person couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag). They tend to be about quantity and not quality.

Maybe it’s the only MA school in your area, or maybe the instructor is very good with kids and is known for developing moral, well adjusted students/members of society, or maybe you have checked out all of the schools and have decided that this one is the best choice (has the best vibe, your son has friends that go there, is the most convenient locationwise, etc…). If so, I’m not trying to make you change your mind or go against your gut. But, if you haven’t checked around to the other schools in your area you might want to do so.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck.[/quote]

You are spot on with your analysis.

I spoke with Dan Severn who did a seminar that my son attended. He told me that he learned these many deadly pressure points before he fought against Tank Abbott in the UFC. He thought it might give him an edge. When he tried these deadly pressure points on Tank Abbott, Abbott didn’t flinch. Of course Dan went on to beat Tank but it was because of superior wrestling and had nothing to do with pressure points as they were just a waste of time.

People like to think that pressure points can work because they then think that they can be equal to big tough guys who actually train hard. It reminds me of other fraudulent advertising, like the magic diet pill instead of actually cutting back on calories and working out to lose weight.

In short, the people who are vulnerable to this type of scam are the very ones who actually need to train with a quality system and lift weights to gain some strength. Instead after a Dillman seminar they walk around thinking they’re invincible if they touch someone in just the right place. It would be funny if it were not so very pathetic.

Dillman is detestable and someone who does more damage than good as he not only gives martial arts a bad name, he also gives the weak a false confidence that can only get them hurt.

Why do they call it Ryukyuan Kempo? I spent 7 years in Okinawa and had some friends who took that style. I was never really close to it or anything but the pressure point thing is something I never heard of. Kempo is a neat style I think. Im sure it will benefit your son. Just like most other styles there are almost useless techniques or ones that do not work well for some individuals. Just have to take what you can use or learn and leave the rest.

[quote]privatemedical wrote:
thanks. the teachers are very good with kids and they do spend time developing character. They are a “wow” charcter development participant and it seemed good to me.

its the most convenent for me right now. if he sticks with it for another year i will look for something else. At only 4 and with the attention span of a four year old, i dont have the highest expectations. he is still leaning the basic punches, blocks, kicks.

no “no touch knockout” yet. but they have taught him a pressure point defense move that hurts really bad when he does it to me.[/quote]

“Nerve attacks” (we prefer to call them this because it matter of factly describes what they are and demystifies them) can be effective for things like releasing holds, creating space to strike, weakening or distracting your opponent and in some cases as striking targets. Except for a few spots (when struck) they are unlikely to be fight Enders, and even then one must have the ability to strike effectively (powerfully and accurately) to get that result. It’s the way that Dillman and those like him utilize (or claim to be able to utilize) such targets that is misleading and dishonest.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Dillman is a fraud. There is some truth to the notion that if you hit certain points on the human body it can result in a KO (the point of the chin for example or the carotid sinus), but most of Dillman’s stuff is just smoke and mirrors or the power of suggestion. Dillman and people like him only tend to “demonstrate” their stuff on their own students and if by chance someone talks them into demoing it on them and it doesn’t work they come out with nonsense like “oh, well your chi/ki just isn’t developed enough for me to be able to manipulate it”, or “oh, well you just aren’t trained enough for this to work on you”. My instructor has stood in front of Dillman himself and had him try one of his pressure point KO’s and it did not work.

This type of nonsensical “super natural” martial arts is quite frankly a disgrace to real martial artists.
Agree 100% Dilman and others are a disgrace to what traditional martial arts should be all about. This is the reason that many, myself included don’t want people to know we “do karate” because it has become “that pretend fighting thing” that 5-12 year olds do at the strip mall. A shame because good karate, kung fu, wing chun etc is the ideal life long activity for adults.

Agree 100%. Those of us who practice traditional martial arts are often embarrassed to let people know we “do karate” because of guys like this. Also hate the idea that karate is for kids, to build their confidence, cope with ADD, bad grades, or bad parenting> This guy and many others have taken legitimate arts, watered them down for people that really don’t want to test themselves, and sold them the koolaid.
M

Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. I would also be wary as a parent as these systems are notorious “black belt factories” (ask them how long it generally takes to earn a black belt, if it’s less than 6 years in any case then that’s a red flag, also look around and see if they have a bunch of under 18 year old black belts, another red flag) who will basically just sell people their black belt (i.e. you just keep paying them for the rank evaluations and they’ll keep promoting you/your child to the next rank, even if that person couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag). They tend to be about quantity and not quality.

Maybe it’s the only MA school in your area, or maybe the instructor is very good with kids and is known for developing moral, well adjusted students/members of society, or maybe you have checked out all of the schools and have decided that this one is the best choice (has the best vibe, your son has friends that go there, is the most convenient locationwise, etc…). If so, I’m not trying to make you change your mind or go against your gut. But, if you haven’t checked around to the other schools in your area you might want to do so.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck.[/quote]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]privatemedical wrote:
thanks. the teachers are very good with kids and they do spend time developing character. They are a “wow” charcter development participant and it seemed good to me.

its the most convenent for me right now. if he sticks with it for another year i will look for something else. At only 4 and with the attention span of a four year old, i dont have the highest expectations. he is still leaning the basic punches, blocks, kicks.

no “no touch knockout” yet. but they have taught him a pressure point defense move that hurts really bad when he does it to me.[/quote]

“Nerve attacks” (we prefer to call them this because it matter of factly describes what they are and demystifies them) can be effective for things like releasing holds, creating space to strike, weakening or distracting your opponent and in some cases as striking targets. Except for a few spots (when struck) they are unlikely to be fight Enders, and even then one must have the ability to strike effectively (powerfully and accurately) to get that result. It’s the way that Dillman and those like him utilize (or claim to be able to utilize) such targets that is misleading and dishonest.[/quote]
Agreed. There are nerve attacks that work, in the pain-compliance or let go of me sense. They’re great underwater (there’s an environment I’ll bet you haven’t been training for). But what these guys pedal is a farce and a disservice to their students.
.

My brother, being a doctor, explained that these sensitive ‘knockout’ points exist and can be manipulated with varied significant results (immobilisation, severe pain, numbness, paralysis, pants-shitting even) but they must be manipulated with a great deal of accuracy, precise amount of pressure and sometimes it is only possible to reach these spots after invasive surgery. So, they are there and I don’t think anyone on this thread disagrees.

It is obviously disingenuous of anyone to suggest they have practical application in a fight that surpasses the typical results one achieves by punching or kicking someone very hard in the head.

Agree with Sento and Devil. Guys like this are the reason those of us that have devoted years to the study of legitimate karate and tma are embarrassed to let people know this is what we are devoted to.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. [/quote]

OP,

I normally agree with Sentoguy, but not in this case.

I would not feel conflicted at all.

I would be shopping for alternatives.

I am a firm believer that there is a lot in the martial arts that benefits children and adults that have little to do with being able to inflict harm on a resisting person or fighting off an attacker intent on doing you injury. However, I think the art has to have benefit in these situations to bring those other benefits to the table.

The confidence, discipline, and accomplishment that come from studying and practicing martial arts can do wonderful things. In some cases I have seen it border on the magical. However, if the student isn’t learning something “real” or “useful” than where is that confidence coming from? How easy will it be to have it eroded or even shattered?

I hold that part of what grants the benefits of training in a martial art, is that it is training in how to manage violence (even if the violence is fairly removed from likely scenarios). Wattering down, or limiting this aspect too much then stops making it the practice of “martial arts” and turns it into “something else”. The student is not so much a “martial artist”, but is just someone “practicing”, “studying”, “doing”, or pray for us all “taking” X. Now there is value in learning any difficult activity. Musashi(who may have known a thing or two about violence and martial culture) didn’t think you had to study a martial art in order to study The Way. I don’t disagree, but I think that whatever is studied should be honest and legitimate.

If your child builds any confidence, feeling of accomplishment, or sense of identity on skills that aren’t there or don’t “work” and then is put in a situation to use them, problems can arise. I am not so much speaking about physical injuries, or even “losing a fight”, but of the emotions associated with thinking you have been trained in a martial art and finding out you that you were either A.) lied to and the techniques don’t work or B.)no good at applying them whatsoever. Young people do not always handle these issues well, young men especially so.

Real skill in martial arts/combatives is a fantastic thing. It is hard won, but there is no real substitute for it. Developing that skill is about continuous self improvement, which requires honesty. If the lessons are false, than it isn’t really “improvement” is it. If the student picks up on this then they might be expected to no longer devote effort to the lessons(negating any of thos coveted “other” benefits) or even worse lapse into cognitive dissonance and start practicing self deception. This is worse than merely the opposit of self improvement. It is anathema. It will prevent any honest improvement.

If you cannot find a decent class for his age group, I think gymnastics is great for small children. Children who practiced it always seemed to have leg up when they showed up to a real martial arts class.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
There are nerve attacks that work, in the pain-compliance or let go of me sense. They’re great underwater (there’s an environment I’ll bet you haven’t been training for). But what these guys pedal is a farce and a disservice to their students.
.[/quote]

I just skinny dip. No one ever wants to cuddle then.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Dillman is a fraud. There is some truth to the notion that if you hit certain points on the human body it can result in a KO (the point of the chin for example or the carotid sinus), but most of Dillman’s stuff is just smoke and mirrors or the power of suggestion. Dillman and people like him only tend to “demonstrate” their stuff on their own students and if by chance someone talks them into demoing it on them and it doesn’t work they come out with nonsense like “oh, well your chi/ki just isn’t developed enough for me to be able to manipulate it”, or “oh, well you just aren’t trained enough for this to work on you”. My instructor has stood in front of Dillman himself and had him try one of his pressure point KO’s and it did not work.

This type of nonsensical “super natural” martial arts is quite frankly a disgrace to real martial artists.

Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. I would also be wary as a parent as these systems are notorious “black belt factories” (ask them how long it generally takes to earn a black belt, if it’s less than 6 years in any case then that’s a red flag, also look around and see if they have a bunch of under 18 year old black belts, another red flag) who will basically just sell people their black belt (i.e. you just keep paying them for the rank evaluations and they’ll keep promoting you/your child to the next rank, even if that person couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag). They tend to be about quantity and not quality.

Maybe it’s the only MA school in your area, or maybe the instructor is very good with kids and is known for developing moral, well adjusted students/members of society, or maybe you have checked out all of the schools and have decided that this one is the best choice (has the best vibe, your son has friends that go there, is the most convenient locationwise, etc…). If so, I’m not trying to make you change your mind or go against your gut. But, if you haven’t checked around to the other schools in your area you might want to do so.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck.[/quote]

You are spot on with your analysis.

I spoke with Dan Severn who did a seminar that my son attended. He told me that he learned these many deadly pressure points before he fought against Tank Abbott in the UFC. He thought it might give him an edge. When he tried these deadly pressure points on Tank Abbott, Abbott didn’t flinch. Of course Dan went on to beat Tank but it was because of superior wrestling and had nothing to do with pressure points as they were just a waste of time.

People like to think that pressure points can work because they then think that they can be equal to big tough guys who actually train hard. It reminds me of other fraudulent advertising, like the magic diet pill instead of actually cutting back on calories and working out to lose weight.

In short, the people who are vulnerable to this type of scam are the very ones who actually need to train with a quality system and lift weights to gain some strength. Instead after a Dillman seminar they walk around thinking they’re invincible if they touch someone in just the right place. It would be funny if it were not so very pathetic.

Dillman is detestable and someone who does more damage than good as he not only gives martial arts a bad name, he also gives the weak a false confidence that can only get them hurt.[/quote]

ZEB,

Please tell me your son started doing the “Wipe armpits, then face” Dan Severn warm up after the seminar.

Tell me this even if it isn’t true.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
There are nerve attacks that work, in the pain-compliance or let go of me sense. They’re great underwater (there’s an environment I’ll bet you haven’t been training for). But what these guys pedal is a farce and a disservice to their students.
.[/quote]

I just skinny dip. No one ever wants to cuddle then.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Good to see you back, Robert A.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. [/quote]

OP,

I normally agree with Sentoguy, but not in this case.

I would not feel conflicted at all.

I would be shopping for alternatives.

I am a firm believer that there is a lot in the martial arts that benefits children and adults that have little to do with being able to inflict harm on a resisting person or fighting off an attacker intent on doing you injury. However, I think the art has to have benefit in these situations to bring those other benefits to the table.

The confidence, discipline, and accomplishment that come from studying and practicing martial arts can do wonderful things. In some cases I have seen it border on the magical. However, if the student isn’t learning something “real” or “useful” than where is that confidence coming from? How easy will it be to have it eroded or even shattered?

I hold that part of what grants the benefits of training in a martial art, is that it is training in how to manage violence (even if the violence is fairly removed from likely scenarios). Wattering down, or limiting this aspect too much then stops making it the practice of “martial arts” and turns it into “something else”. The student is not so much a “martial artist”, but is just someone “practicing”, “studying”, “doing”, or pray for us all “taking” X. Now there is value in learning any difficult activity. Musashi(who may have known a thing or two about violence and martial culture) didn’t think you had to study a martial art in order to study The Way. I don’t disagree, but I think that whatever is studied should be honest and legitimate.

If your child builds any confidence, feeling of accomplishment, or sense of identity on skills that aren’t there or don’t “work” and then is put in a situation to use them, problems can arise. I am not so much speaking about physical injuries, or even “losing a fight”, but of the emotions associated with thinking you have been trained in a martial art and finding out you that you were either A.) lied to and the techniques don’t work or B.)no good at applying them whatsoever. Young people do not always handle these issues well, young men especially so.

Real skill in martial arts/combatives is a fantastic thing. It is hard won, but there is no real substitute for it. Developing that skill is about continuous self improvement, which requires honesty. If the lessons are false, than it isn’t really “improvement” is it. If the student picks up on this then they might be expected to no longer devote effort to the lessons(negating any of thos coveted “other” benefits) or even worse lapse into cognitive dissonance and start practicing self deception. This is worse than merely the opposit of self improvement. It is anathema. It will prevent any honest improvement.

If you cannot find a decent class for his age group, I think gymnastics is great for small children. Children who practiced it always seemed to have leg up when they showed up to a real martial arts class.

Regards,

Robert A [/quote]

Good to see you back, Robert. insightful comments, as always. I was beginning to think Sandy had washed you away and since I am unable to send PM’s, I was thinking posting a BOLO on you.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
There are nerve attacks that work, in the pain-compliance or let go of me sense. They’re great underwater (there’s an environment I’ll bet you haven’t been training for). But what these guys pedal is a farce and a disservice to their students.
.[/quote]

I just skinny dip. No one ever wants to cuddle then.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]
Perhaps you’re losing your sex appeal?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Dillman is a fraud.[/quote]

That sums it up. People are rarely dishonest in only one part of their life. I would not have my kids hang around someone like that because they are apt to learn certain dysfunctional behaviors. Why give the little dear a budding personality disorder?

E.g., One of my kids tried to do Aikido locally because his friends did, but the instructor was such a fool (right down to sprouting a fake Japanese accent when philosophizing) I yanked him out of it. I did a double take the day I saw him teaching 10 year-olds they should rush a swordsman and try a joint lock as part of their self-defense training. O-M-F-G. I put my oldest in the local pee-wee wrestling club (they were very good indeed with kids) and later when he got too old for that, both my kids ended up in the local fencing club for a couple of years, since they had an awesome kids’ program. My take is to find people who are good folks and train kids like kids.

–> Remember that the aim of any education is to learn when people are feeding you BS.<–

If you get an instructor you think is full of it, they very probably are.

Now there is where you are flat out wrong. See, nearly every point is a lethal pressure point if you hit is hard enough…

First ran into Dillman in the mid 80’s and thought he was a damn near complete idiot then and this was when he was still young enough an mobile enough to actually try techniques. One the local martial arts schools (a McDojo) brought him in as Grand Poo-bah guest instructor for a week. I found he was good at scoping out his audience, making shit up on the spot and stringing them along. I would not hang out with him if you paid me. He gives the lot of us a bad name.

– jj

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Now, if you personally feel that your son is getting something beneficial out of the classes (self discipline, respect, better focus, a form of exercise that he enjoys doing, etc…) then fine; often times children’s martial arts is more about character building than it is about physical combative skills anyway.

But personally I would feel conflicted knowing that what the instructor was teaching my child was fake or at the very least less than optimal and could even be misleading him as to the nature of reality or his capabilities to defend himself. [/quote]

OP,

I normally agree with Sentoguy, but not in this case.

I would not feel conflicted at all.

I would be shopping for alternatives.

I am a firm believer that there is a lot in the martial arts that benefits children and adults that have little to do with being able to inflict harm on a resisting person or fighting off an attacker intent on doing you injury. However, I think the art has to have benefit in these situations to bring those other benefits to the table.

The confidence, discipline, and accomplishment that come from studying and practicing martial arts can do wonderful things. In some cases I have seen it border on the magical. However, if the student isn’t learning something “real” or “useful” than where is that confidence coming from? How easy will it be to have it eroded or even shattered?

I hold that part of what grants the benefits of training in a martial art, is that it is training in how to manage violence (even if the violence is fairly removed from likely scenarios). Wattering down, or limiting this aspect too much then stops making it the practice of “martial arts” and turns it into “something else”. The student is not so much a “martial artist”, but is just someone “practicing”, “studying”, “doing”, or pray for us all “taking” X. Now there is value in learning any difficult activity. Musashi(who may have known a thing or two about violence and martial culture) didn’t think you had to study a martial art in order to study The Way. I don’t disagree, but I think that whatever is studied should be honest and legitimate.

If your child builds any confidence, feeling of accomplishment, or sense of identity on skills that aren’t there or don’t “work” and then is put in a situation to use them, problems can arise. I am not so much speaking about physical injuries, or even “losing a fight”, but of the emotions associated with thinking you have been trained in a martial art and finding out you that you were either A.) lied to and the techniques don’t work or B.)no good at applying them whatsoever. Young people do not always handle these issues well, young men especially so.

Real skill in martial arts/combatives is a fantastic thing. It is hard won, but there is no real substitute for it. Developing that skill is about continuous self improvement, which requires honesty. If the lessons are false, than it isn’t really “improvement” is it. If the student picks up on this then they might be expected to no longer devote effort to the lessons(negating any of thos coveted “other” benefits) or even worse lapse into cognitive dissonance and start practicing self deception. This is worse than merely the opposit of self improvement. It is anathema. It will prevent any honest improvement.

If you cannot find a decent class for his age group, I think gymnastics is great for small children. Children who practiced it always seemed to have leg up when they showed up to a real martial arts class.

Regards,

Robert A [/quote]

Good counter points and personally I would not choose to have my kid in such a school either. I, like you, am an RMA guy through and through, and if what someone is teaching my kid doesn’t work, I’m pulling them out and going elsewhere.

But allow me to offer some counter points and explain my original point.

  1. not everyone does martial arts to become badass fighting machines. Some people want to compete in forms competitions (we call this XMA short for exhibition martial arts). Pretty much all of the application has been stripped from such training in exchange for maximal flashiness, athleticism, and “wow” factor. Then you’ve got people who are looking for disciplines, structure, and perhaps feel some draw towards a cultural identity/history; so they take up a TMA (traditional martial art). In many cases they wind up training with archaic weapons, and in some the applications of their techniques are far from practical, pragmatic or even effective. None of these apply to me personally, but far be it for me to tell others that they are wrong for training in martial arts for these reasons. Whether you want to argue that these should not be called martial arts is another discussion.

  2. regardless of how effective something might be, if the child does not enjoy doing it then they aren’t going to want to continue going. Sure the OP could drag his son kicking and screaming to class every week/day and force him to continue (and perhaps some would agree with that approach), but the child is not going to put much effort or heart into their training if they hate being there, which is only going to result in the child not learning anything anyway. At least if they enjoy doing something they are going to actually put effort into learning it (even if it is inferior to the other hypothetical school if an equal degree of effort is given).

  3. the kid is 4. His neuromuscular system is realistically incapable of even learning how to execute most combatively effective techniques. Not to mention that his attention span is most likely measured in seconds and his interests are likely just as short lived. There is no telling whether he will actually stick with his training and as a result I don’t really see any problem with letting him do something that he enjoys. Now, if he sticks with it for a couple years and really seems to have a passion for MA (and tries some of his stuff out on some kids on the playground only to find that it doesn’t work), then yeah, maybe start worrying about stuff like combative effectiveness (in all likelihood he’ll probably gladly change schools in that case).

[quote]jj-dude

Now there is where you are flat out wrong. See, nearly every point is a lethal pressure point if you hit is hard enough…

– jj[/quote]

Not sure if serious, sometimes sarcasm is hard to read via text unless explicitly labeled.

And while you may be right in the absolute sense (for instance if you shoot me in the foot with a missel or tank shell), realistically there are only a few that are going to take someone out.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]jj-dude

Now there is where you are flat out wrong. See, nearly every point is a lethal pressure point if you hit is hard enough…

– jj[/quote]

Not sure if serious, sometimes sarcasm is hard to read via text unless explicitly labeled.

And while you may be right in the absolute sense (for instance if you shoot me in the foot with a missel or tank shell), realistically there are only a few that are going to take someone out.[/quote]

It was intended to be humorous, pure plain and simple. Just agreeing with what you wrote.

There is though a truffle of truth in it for Dillman and his ilk. They can choose almost any point and claim it has mystical powers if you do it “right”, then spend their time “explaining” why it works with some mystical system. The beauty of this is that if it doesn’t work for you, then you just need to believe more fully (i.e. surrender any critical thought that might get in the way) and you need more instruction from the master, for which you should be prepared to pay then be thankful to boot. When I saw him in action, he had the crowd eating out of his hand. The man can sell ice to eskimos.

And what thread on Dillman would be complete without this gem?:

Be sure you listen to his explanation at about 1:15. Priceless!

– jj