Genetics and Bodybuilding

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

Well it is subjective. I don’t consider his genetics elite, maybe you do. I think of elite as one of the best to do what they do. In football, it would be Pat Mahomes, Randy Moss… In BBing it is Ronnie, Priest, Leverone… I don’t put this guy in that group.

We can have different definitions of elite. I consider a guy with narrower bone structure in the shoulders than me to be excluded from elite. It needs to be the total package IMO to be elite. Not most of the package.

If we want to say everyone who makes it as pro, has elite, then I agree with you. This guy is likely top 1% genetics for BBing compared to all men. I don’t think I consider that enough for elite. I don’t consider any of my lifts elite, even though far less than 1% of men can do them.

22

right, we have different definitions then. You’re talking about hall of fame level, essentially, as elite. That’s generally not how the word is used in conversation.

Most of the time, I hear elite as being synonymous with ‘world-class’. I would say that everyone who makes it to the highest league in their sport is an elite athlete. I’ve called myself an elite athlete at times because at my best I’ve been at the very top of my sport in my weight class.

I would agree. I contextualize it within the sport, generally. I would say that makes you, in terms of overall humanity, elitely strong, if it’s true. But not necessarily an elite powerlifter. An elite powerlifter would be someone in the top 1% of competitive powerlifting.

So in this case, I’m not just saying Arash has top 1% bodybuilding genetics for humans in general. I’m saying he has top 1% genetics WITHIN the competitive sport. That’s how I qualify elite.

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23

Agree. When talking elite, I am talking within a sport. I am elite by general population, not within PLing standards.

Maybe I am off base, but you really put this guy within top 1% within BBing? Maybe if we are counting amateur? Out of the pros, I would put the guys I listed in that category, but I can’t see it for this guy.

The guy has fantastic genetics for BBing, and can even place highly at a high level open show if he puts some size on. There have been guys that IMO are lower on the genetic gifts (compared to the top pros) that have won the Mr. O. I put Bannout and Dickerson in that bucket.

24

I know it’s matter of opinion, but I think that the behemoths that currently hold the top spots, and have for quite some time have crossed the point of diminishing return.

The classic era and the current classic division are what I would consider the sweet spot for aesthetics and size.

But, as always, preferences will vary.

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25

I agree with that. I think some of the guys that are really monsters would do well in classic without or lower drugs. Their genetics allow a ton of muscle and they carry it on a good frame. So Ronnie in classic might naturally beat some of the top current classic guys who are blasting a lot of gear.

I think the genetics sorts out who is in what division more than the gear use. I think most use high doses. This obviously isn’t always true. Some do choose to use less, and go into classic. Some open class guys decide the toll is too much, and go to classic where they can use less.

26

Dude placed 2nd at the Olympia in his category (classic physique)… not the open BB class but that’s not what he’s competing in.

So yeah, I would put him in the top 1% as literally only one other person on the planet beat him at his chosen endeavor.

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27

I agree, he is elite in classic, you make a good point. I do think that he would have trouble in open though.

28

Your genetics definitely play a huge role in bodybuilding. We all know that one guy who just looks at a dumbbell and puts on 5 lbs of muscle. Some people just win the DNA jackpot. Structural differences (smaller joints, muscle insertion points), hormonal differences (IGF-1, testosterone, myostatin), and muscle fiber ratios are all dictated by your genes. Genetics will set you up to succeed, but it’s not enough to excel at the sport. You still need to put it in a ton of work in the gym and nutrition (and pharmaceuticals) to get to top levels. Brandon Curry posted on these forums years ago (I think his screenname was Gifted). He was pretty jacked back then, and he said on the forums he didn’t work out that hard to get to that size. Obviously, he’s gotten much bigger since then because he started focusing on competitions.

29

Not sure what your point is here - did Arnold have elite genetics? He wouldn’t stand a chance in the modern open category.

30

Well, the picture posted on the first post of the thread was an example of elite genetics. I took a look at the guy, and thought to myself that he is pretty narrow, and IMO would not do well in BBing. Then I was told he does do well in BBing, but not in open class, and he does well in classic. Those two classes require different traits. Classic has a huge emphasis on a small waist, and open has a huge emphasis on freak factor (huge round muscles, wide as a door way shoulders, etc).

I was just saying I don’t think the guy has elite genetics for open BBing, which is what I thought we were talking about. I can agree he has elite for classic.

Arnold had elite genetics for the subjective competitions he was competing in. Now he would not have elite genetics in open BBing IMO.

31

I think you’re confusing “genetics” with “rampant drug use”. Arnold’s genetics were, and remain, elite. Genetics don’t change, standards of judging and boatloads of drug use do.

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32

I think Arnold used a lot. Not like today’s average pro, but a lot. I think what they are looking for is different than in the 70s. I think if Arnold had Tom Platz’s leg genetics he would be there. Maybe he could have gotten them a lot bigger if that is what was demanded? Not sure. If the legs just grew in proportion to the drug use, I think they would hold him back today (it isn’t like Arnold didn’t train legs hard).

33

Ill bet good money that the average amateur who can’t even win a local show is using more drugs than Arnold did. The pharma forum alone is evidence of that.

Getting back to my original point, genetics haven’t changed, drugs have, and looking like Arash did at 16 is exceedingly rare, even for an adult who’s been lifting for years, much less as a teenager.

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34

Many golden era guys used huge doses too. I like Arnold, but I also don’t necessarily believe his recount of his steroid use. He has incentives to make it seem like he used less. I mean the guy tried to tell people he didn’t actually smoke pot (didn’t inhale) after being on film smoking pot (I don’t have anything against what he did, just showing an example of him downplaying his drug use).

As an example of huge use in the golden era, look at Pete Grymkowski. The guy claims to have used 70,000 mg of total AAS per week. The guys back then understood more drugs can result in more muscle. They were also competitive, and the best in the world.

No argument here. I still think he is too narrow in the shoulders to be a winner in high level open bodybuilding.

35

I think you are downplaying all the other things that go into BBing other than structure. Perhaps your definition of “elite” means absolutely no weaknesses, but if you put on mass easily, have nice full muscle bellies with optimal insertion points, respond well to drugs and don’t get serious side effects, aren’t prone to injury and can thus train uninterrupted for 10-15 years, etc… but happen to have slightly narrow shoulders… I’d say your elite still.

I’d say everyone that makes it to the O stage is elite, even if only 2-5 of them have any chance of actually winning the whole thing.

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36

Some people are just super responsive to training.

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37

Lol - been busy and haven’t been able to get back to this thread till now. I love people with no experience or knowledge chiming in on what other people do or accomplish. Some things about online bodybuilding communities never change.

I’d wager money that Arash at 16, with no clue how to pose at all looks better than more than half the people on this forum. He’s 5’10, so just think about what that looks like in front of you, and not in some tiny thumbnail pic on your computer screen. Narrow shoulders? Phil Heath has narrow shoulders and he won the Olympia a few times,… good thing he didn’t pop on here asking advice when he was coming up, let alone at 16 :slight_smile:

Yeah, I’m a bit biased, but I also know a few things most people dont:

1- He uses less than what most average (non-bodybuilders) HRT patients use because (and I’m happy about this), he’s actually scared of medical issues down the line, and personally I’d rather have my friend healthy and alive than be able to make myself sound cool with “my buddy won the Olympia back in the day,… when he was still alive…”

2- Whenever he worked with a couple of well known “names” in the game, me him, and one other very knowledgeable individual who Arash trusts very much, would discuss, and usually he’d follow a fraction of what was being recommended by the “guru.”

3- Plenty of Open competitors have tried to get him to “push things” and do Open classes, but you’re talking about a serious different level in terms of PEDs, and anyone who is actually knowledgeable about the game understands that.

IMO, genetics can show themselves in how far a person can get without “assistance.” We’ve all seen pics of Kai Greene when he was still clean. Pics of Desmond Miller, Ronnie Coleman, and they look amazing, BUT, people question their level of cleanness… until they see just how far they would explode with growth when something unspoken must have happened behind the scenes…

Look at Arash at 16, look at him winning his pro card in Men’s Physique (totally clean!), look at him these last couple of years, as a top guy in the Classic Division… trust me, if he’s accomplished this current level without much of anything, this guy is a genetic freak in every sense, but I’m happy he’s staying away from what he could be doing.

S

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38

You could expand that to 90% - and still be pretty confident of taking the money home.

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39

WAY more than half. I’ve certainly never come close to looking like that at twice his age, haha. My main question in all of this was, if that’s NOT elite genetics for a 16 year old, WHAT IS?

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40

I think that’s where there is a disconnect. When somebody is a Lean 215-220 at 5’ something, IRL they are carrying unmistakable serious mass.

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