A question for those who know, what are the negative side effects of high testosterone when it is produced entirely by the body, i.e no artificial test in any form, in large enough amounts to be attained only through anabolics in most individuals? Is it just artificial testosterone that causes the much media hyped side effects of which most people never shut up about? Feel free to not answer.
Extremes in anything are generally bad.
Look at what happens with excessive GH, you get huge folks with a cardiovascular system unable to support them.
What makes you believe that anyone can or has produced enough test naturally that most would have to take anabolics to reach that level?
The stated normal range is rather wide if I recall, can’t find the exact numbers, so to rephrase if someone with low end testosterone, took steroids to reach the same concentration as someone with naturally very high testosterone would the level of negative side effects be equal?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
What makes you believe that anyone can or has produced enough test naturally that most would have to take anabolics to reach that level?[/quote]
I think, and I could be wrong here, that he’s asking in regards to a hypothetical situation, one that may be very likely in the future.
If you re-read the title of his thread, it includes “Genetically Modified…”; he may be alluding to the idea of gene therapy. It has been predicted to be the next step in performance-enhancement (a gross understatement if it ever comes to fruition).
You have to consider that many, but not all of the “problems” which arise from supraphysiological levels of testosterone result from the negative feedback loop which controls testosterone levels in humans.
For example, if there is a spike in testosterone there is almost inevitably spike in estrogen due to more testosterone coming into contact with the aromatase enzyme. So, individuals with different levels of enzymes such as aromatase and 5-alpha reductase would aromatize/reduce different amounts of testosterone, respectively.
Fairly soon, the testosterone levels return to normal(assuming the stimulus is removed) while estrogen and DHT and further reduced-testosterone derivatives rise. Gyno, hair loss, etc if one is sensitive to those things.
I think you have to consider factors like this in relation to the individuals biochemical make up, as deviations from what is normal WITHIN A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL will affect THE INVIDIDUAL.
For example let’s take two males of the same age, person A and person B. Person A, eating an adequate diet and exercising, maintains testosterone levels of 562 ng/dl . On the other hand, person B, while maintaining adequate diet and exercise, maintains levels of 1106 ng/dl.
Genetic make-up accounts for the differences. Varying levels of enzymes, the degree of gene expression which controls the entire feedback loop, differs between individuals.
So I think the “negative” effects of excessive hormones stem from the DEGREE OF DEVIATION from with NORMAL PHYSIOLOGICAL VALUES FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL, and not so much as the absolute value itself.
In addition to the above, you have to consider things such as hypertension and myocardium hypertrophy, or enlargement of the inner muscular layer of the heart, resulting in a smaller and smaller volume inside the heart for which to contain blood.
Then,there are things such as cancer which may be influenced by anabolic hormones.
This is an interesting topic and far beyond what I could cover, and I’m sure I’ve butchered some of the points anyways. Feel free to flame or contribute anymore.
This further begs the question: Are all levels of exogenous testosterone suppressive? Well, what makes exogenous testosterone suppressive anyways? If I recall correctly, its the degree to which it binds to the androgen receptor, in addition to the amount which comes into contact with enzymes such as aromatase, which would provide the feedback signal to cease production of FSH? and consequently LH?, resulting in suppression of testicular production of testosterone.
I would imagine however, that a certain threshold has to be reached in order to cause significant suppression. If an older male sits around 260ng/dl of testosterone because of many factors then I would imagine using enough exogenous testosterone to raise to say, 700ng/dl, would not result in much suppression unless the cause of the original hypogonadism was the result of excesses of feedback enzymes…if that makes sense. Besides, if you’re hypogonadal while not on juice, who cares if you’re further suppressed while on? =P
Again, to reiterate, I think the main problem arises from increases far beyond the supraphysiological ranges for each individual. There is a reason you have the level of hormones that you do, and deviations from your baseline level usually are not maintained because of those same reasons. However, if one were to genetically modify all of the factors which influence hormone control… (Do we even know ALL of the factors???)
I know I’ve been all over the damn place, and I’m not checking textbooks or anything like that, so if anyone has had the patience to read this and point out flaws in my reasoning, do so.
1)acne
2)baldness
3)gargantuan balls-they’ll get in the way
4)inconveniently high sex drive
5)a load that could paint a house
[quote]CC wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What makes you believe that anyone can or has produced enough test naturally that most would have to take anabolics to reach that level?
I think, and I could be wrong here, that he’s asking in regards to a hypothetical situation, one that may be very likely in the future.
If you re-read the title of his thread, it includes “Genetically Modified…”; he may be alluding to the idea of gene therapy. It has been predicted to be the next step in performance-enhancement (a gross understatement if it ever comes to fruition).
[/quote]
As a final year biotechnology student at Griffith Uni Australia, I can only say that if you knew how right you were. The research and theory is as sound as ever, all that is needed is the will to develop it further. This will be done probably by small time companies with money to burn and kept very quiet because of possible bad press. Yes I was referring to genetic modification and when the results in terms of performance enhancement could be staggering.
[quote]NewDamage wrote:
For example, if there is a spike in testosterone there is almost inevitably spike in estrogen due to more testosterone coming into contact with the aromatase enzyme. So, individuals with different levels of enzymes such as aromatase and 5-alpha reductase would aromatize/reduce different amounts of testosterone, respectively.
Fairly soon, the testosterone levels return to normal(assuming the stimulus is removed) while estrogen and DHT and further reduced-testosterone derivatives rise. Gyno, hair loss, etc if one is sensitive to those things.
I think you have to consider factors like this in relation to the individuals biochemical make up, as deviations from what is normal WITHIN A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL will affect THE INVIDIDUAL.
For example let’s take two males of the same age, person A and person B. Person A, eating an adequate diet and exercising, maintains testosterone levels of 562 ng/dl . On the other hand, person B, while maintaining adequate diet and exercise, maintains levels of 1106 ng/dl.
Genetic make-up accounts for the differences. Varying levels of enzymes, the degree of gene expression which controls the entire feedback loop, differs between individuals.
So I think the “negative” effects of excessive hormones stem from the DEGREE OF DEVIATION from with NORMAL PHYSIOLOGICAL VALUES FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL, and not so much as the absolute value itself.
In addition to the above, you have to consider things such as hypertension and myocardium hypertrophy, or enlargement of the inner muscular layer of the heart, resulting in a smaller and smaller volume inside the heart for which to contain blood.
Then,there are things such as cancer which may be influenced by anabolic hormones.
This is an interesting topic and far beyond what I could cover, and I’m sure I’ve butchered some of the points anyways. Feel free to flame or contribute anymore.
This further begs the question: Are all levels of exogenous testosterone suppressive? Well, what makes exogenous testosterone suppressive anyways? If I recall correctly, its the degree to which it binds to the androgen receptor, in addition to the amount which comes into contact with enzymes such as aromatase, which would provide the feedback signal to cease production of FSH? and consequently LH?, resulting in suppression of testicular production of testosterone.
I would imagine however, that a certain threshold has to be reached in order to cause significant suppression. If an older male sits around 260ng/dl of testosterone because of many factors then I would imagine using enough exogenous testosterone to raise to say, 700ng/dl, would not result in much suppression unless the cause of the original hypogonadism was the result of excesses of feedback enzymes…if that makes sense. Besides, if you’re hypogonadal while not on juice, who cares if you’re further suppressed while on? =P
Again, to reiterate, I think the main problem arises from increases far beyond the supraphysiological ranges for each individual. There is a reason you have the level of hormones that you do, and deviations from your baseline level usually are not maintained because of those same reasons. However, if one were to genetically modify all of the factors which influence hormone control… (Do we even know ALL of the factors???)
I know I’ve been all over the damn place, and I’m not checking textbooks or anything like that, so if anyone has had the patience to read this and point out flaws in my reasoning, do so.
[/quote]
Excellent post, it raised many issues I had not given enough concern. Feel free to PM me for more details. Alot of the issues you raise could in fact be countered by appropriate use of enzyme inhibtors, counteragents and such. Thanks for the reply.