T Nation

Genetic Limits?

Ok, I figured I would just throw this out there and see if you guys know any studies or facts or know absolutely nothing and just wanna talk shit.

Is there a point to taking more than 3-4 heavy mass juice cycles in your life ( for guys who regularly work out)? I am not talking about BRIDGING or juicing YEAR ROUND. I am talking about the BASIC cosmetic bodybuilder who is just using AAS to reach a musculer limit he can HOLD while NOT on juice.

Excluding CUTTING cycles for contests and Bodybuilders who use juice year round to make constant gains due to the NEW anabolic environment they created in their body…I am talking about the guy ( like me I guess) who would cycle AAS just to reach a state of muscle he can hold while NOT on the juice.

It seems to me that after about 3- 4 quality cycles, your body is at the limit your NATURAL hormone levels can support the muscle mass. Think about this. Flex wheeler stopped juicing ( still lifts) but dropped from 296 to 217!!! Kevin Lervone Balloons up and down in weight. The classic bodybuilders always competed at the same weight, but used anabolics 1-2 times a year for years. Arnold made most of his muscler jumps between the ages of 19 - 23. After that he always competed at 225 ( maybe better conditioned, but not at a larger size).

My whole point is that if you like to ballon up and down in weight, like the guys who do AAS before summer or compete, to look good for a CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME ( particulary when on AAS) this does not pertain to you. It is more directed to the guy who doesn’t want to have to count on AAS everytime he wants to look good, but mainly reach his bodies natural mass limit QUICKER.

Alright, now what the fuck do you think about my hypothesis? Start’em up boys!

My own experience is this: Last year when I had elbow surgery, I lost a lot of size. My left arm just shrunk to nothing and soon after the rest of me followed suit. When I was finally able to work out again I decided to see how much size I could put on naturally before I went back to using AAS. It turned out that I was able to get bigger then I had ever been before, naturally, that is; even before I began to do AAS again. I didn’t wait to plateau before I started a cycle but at that point I remember my arms where at least a half inch bigger than they had ever been before when I had plateaued naturally and decided to juice. I think this has to do with muscle memory. So bottom line from my experience is you will always have the potential to be bigger natural if you have used AAS in the past then if you never did. P-22

Good addition prisoner…what about the rest of you?

i dont know bro, this is a tough one. for example, right now i feel like i have decent size relative to my height. most people think i am “big.” i either have a fucked up perception of my own body or they dont know shit about a good physique or both.

i think after this cycle i could see myself just concentrating on maintaining my current size and just focus on staying realtivley lean year round. throwing in a couple of cutters here and there.

on the other hand, deep down i still dont feel that i am very big and i want to get bigger. where does it stop is my question? do you finally one day decide ok im big enough now? i really dont know how to explain that phenomenon.

who the fuck knows? ill let you know when i get there.

P-dog, I beleive I have your answer

You should have a “body type” role model when you lift, so you know when you have achieved your goals. If you want to look like Ronnie Coleman, then you are not there yet, etc.

What I look at is PROPORTION. Like, most guys don’t have an artistic eye. For instance, Arnold had a great chest BUt look at his delts. They were developed BUT not overpowering his chest, HENCE his chest looks bigger. Plus he has a SLIM waistline. Guys today have the SAME SIZE CHEST, but big waists and DOMINATE delts which prevents the chest to look bigger and protrude.

Its like a girl with C or D cup tits. Her tits don’t look good if she has a gut and is hunched over ( even though we’d still fuck her) as opposed to the girl with the same size tits, small waist and good posture, HENCE…her tits look BIGGER!

Get a mental pic, then you have something to look forward to acheiveing. Its like building a fuckin house and you just keep building to make it “bigger”. Makes no sense. BLUEPRINTS FIRST! Plus, it could be big and look like shit.

ok, enough. I don’t want this thread to get highjacked.

Other opinions on my original post?

This is a great question. Recently I’ve begun thinking about doing a cycle or two but nothing I plan on sticking with for the long run. I’ve been lifting knowledgeably for about 6 years and have about hit what I can do naturally.(6’6 305 21" arms 52" chest www.hakt0ne.org/tone.jpg I’ll get a better an more up to date one soon)
Besides the MAG-10 I’ve never used any sort of AAS but lately I’ve thought about a quick cycle or 2 of Test & Winny. I figured this would give me just that last little push to “monster” status that I wanted and after that I’d work on maintaining the size while trying to increase strength. Great question and I’m interested as hell to see what many of the vets have to say.

IMO you will always be able to be bigger and keep the more size after some good cycles. As long as you keep training and nutrition in check. Like someone else said regarding muscle memory, have you ever had a long period where you didn’t lift for some reason or another then went back and were able to reach that same point again where you left off in a short amount of time?
I believe when on AAS you “stretch” that muscle memory and are able to be bigger when not “on”.
Does that make sense?

Good reply, but my question is “How many quality cycles before you reach what you can hold naturally” I mean In from what I SEE…the first 3- 4 quality cycles usually gets you to where you are gonna be. To go beyond this point and hold the gains, I think year round anabolics are required.

Keep them coming.

nice attempt lats but i dont hink my problem is solved. i took your advice and decided that an ideal physique to me would be something similiar to swolecat. the guy is not hyooooooge, or freaky,but he looks great.

here is the problem, what happens if and when i achieve this goal? will i be satisfied? i honestly just think that no matter what my goals are i will not be happy.

when i first started working out my goal was to bench 300lbs. now i want to bench 5. i think it is a never ending cycle. pun intended.

You are right in your assumption.

Lats, I think it would take a good 3 or 4 cycles to get yourself to a point where you could always maintain a certain amount of muscle above previous levels. But you need to also consider that you will lose a certain amount of muscle and may not be happy with that. I know I have some decent size, but I dont not consider myself very big. I am never big enough never lean enough. There are also certain body parts that need some serious help. Like my damn delts. Bottom line is you should be able to keep more muscle than you could before cycling, but will you like being a bit smaller than you were when you were on?

P-dog…you remind me of that cunt in my 3rd grade class who would finish all her fuckin work and ask the teacher “what else can I do” meanwhile I’m sitting in the back of the class still on ditto, doing math problems on my fingers…THERE IS NOTHING ELSE TO DO!! STOP!! YOU ARE DONE!!! Sit around and enjoy being “done”. Go out and fuck some whores with your new physique that took years to build from the pussy one you had years prior. Shit…when I’m done I think I am just gonna go out on a wild binge in las vegas hyped on on meth, bang as many prostitues s possible, and whenever my money runs out I will look in the mirror and realize I have accomplished everything I intended the day i picked that weight. i will then throw myself off a building while on fire. ( that is a cool way to die) Man, i can’t wait to be DONE!

Ok, back to my ORIGINAL POST…hahaha


I am completely with P-Dog on this one bro. Even when I set a goal and say once I reach this I am done it never happens. I hit my goal and think to myself “damn how much further could I have gone?” and I jump right back on the juice train.

Essentially, I don’t think I can ever be satisfied. I really think everything I do and alot of other guys do can be attributed to the same major malfunction in our fuckin brains that make girls bulemic. No matter how good I look to myself or others I know deep down I could be better so I don’t stop.


Good luck doing 1 or 2. Once you cross over to the darkside you are there for a long time bud.

well maybe if i can have a threesome with two fine 18 year old cheerleaders then i will be satisfied!

Great question. Not really sure where to start here. I agree with P-22 and P-dog on 2 separate issues. The first, My “perception” of myself, as P-dog put it, is totally fucked. I don’t know where to stop. I never really set goals for myself either. I just want to keep getting bigger and bigger because I always see myself as being skinny. Being 147 lbs. at 6’1 when I was younger has really messed my mind. Now I’m 100 lbs. heavier and people say I’m big at 249 lbs. I just don’t see it. If I still have room to grow, then I’ll grow.

The second issue, is muscle memory. I took 17 stitches to the back of the hand last March 2003. I stopped training all together (man, hands are involved in EVERY movement!) I lost some good size and strength. After my recovery, I got back to training ASAP. Within 6 weeks, I was PAST my size (in weight) BEFORE my accident, and feeling fuller and stronger even before I went to do a cycle again!

But then again, we keep reading about homeostasis, and how your body likes to “stay the same”. Your body hates to change, we all know this. So going back to lats’ question… can we maintain a certain level of muscularity without AAS at a given weight/size? I’d say yes. Once your body reaches a certain level of “experience” and “maintanence”, and we as cautious bodybuilders “maintain” ourselves with proper diet and exercise, we can achieve this. But remember, on a depressing note, as we grow older, our natural hormone levels will drop. We can’t STAY big our entire lives.

From the looks of all the responses you’re probably right. Being as how you have to be a little complusive to do what we do anyway, it makes sense that after the first, it’d be addicting. Damn you guys, now I gotta rethink it.

Addicting? I’m not sure that’s the right word. Are any of you failing in any of life’s more important ventures due to your obsession with muscle? Most likely not.
In fact most of us eat like kings 6-8 times a day. Many have decent tans year round. We all most likely do better with the ladies (girls for you and me p-dog) than some man-tit sporting boney girl armed pasty faced average joe. Fellow men who train and even those who don’t typically give us some extra level of respect, if not for our hard work/dedication/discipline, then for the mere fact that we could probably twist their head off:-) J/K:)

Sorry for the rant/jack. BTW P-dog don’t worry about it too much. As time changes so will you and most likely your goal/priorities. Don’t mind fuck your self so much.

Now back to the question at hand. I agree completely with P-22. As for having a physique role model I guess it’s a decent idea but I prefer to visualize myself at my ideal body type.

You took me using the word addiction as a negative. It wasn’t meant that way. What I mean is we have an obsession/addiction with getting big/strong. What else could drive us to do what we do to ourselves? I come home nightly feeling beat up and sore after a Max Effort bench or squat day. I’m not failing in other parts of my life. I wasn’t saying anyone here was. Addiction doesn’t necessarily carry a negative connotation.

Main Entry: ad?dic?tion
Pronunciation: &-'dik-sh&n, a-
Function: noun
Date: 1599
1 : the quality or state of being addicted
2 : compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

Pronunciation Key

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Nobody really knows what one person can hold onto “Naturally” as everybody will be different. The general conclusion that can be drawn here though is that with breaks comes greater gains. That may be something to look into all together or maybe perhaps we just think we are bigger than what we were before. I don’t think that is the case and I know it is not the case for me whenever I have taken breaks or layoffs from lifting. As for P Dogs question. You will never be big enough because if you were you would be satisfied and we just are’nt like that. We were’nt satisfied with ourselves when we started lifting and we set out to change it. Now we are lifting, have made changes and we still are’nt satisfied. Content maybe but we are always reaching for that next level, that extra inch, that 5 more lbs, that one more rep. It’s what drives us, without it we may as well be dead. Yeah, I want more. Imagine weighing 130 lbs and being 6ft 1in. Took a long time to get what I have, you’re damn right I want more, I earned that right to want more. OH yeah, a couple 18 year olds would be nice too!!! :slight_smile: